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Australia Transportation

Australia To Target Vehicle Emissions To Boost Electric Car Supply (reuters.com) 54

Posted by msmash from the moving-forward dept.
Australia's government said on Friday it plans to introduce new regulations targeting vehicle carbon emissions to boost the uptake of electric cars, as it looks to catch up with other developed economies. From a report: Just 2% of cars sold in Australia are electric compared with 15% in Britain and 17% in Europe, and the country risked becoming a dumping ground for vehicles that can't be sold elsewhere, Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen said. Apart from Russia, Australia is the only OECD country to either not have or be developing fuel efficiency standards, which encourage manufacturers to supply more electric and no-emission vehicles, he said. "To me, this is ultimately about choice. And policy settings are denying Australians real choice of good, affordable, no emissions cars," Bowen told an electric vehicle summit in Canberra. The government will release a discussion paper for consultation in September, with a focus on increasing EV uptake, improving affordability, and looking at options for fuel efficiency standards.
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Australia To Target Vehicle Emissions To Boost Electric Car Supply More

Australia To Target Vehicle Emissions To Boost Electric Car Supply

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  • Little bit of politicianspeak here (Score:5, Insightful)

    by smoot123 ( 1027084 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @05:46PM (#62804997)

    And policy settings are denying Australians real choice of good, affordable, no emissions cars...

    Let's be clear. No one is being denied the ability to by an electric car in Australia (unless there are import restrictions which the summary does not talk about). Not subsidizing electric vehicles or penalizing gas cars doesn't deny anyone anything. It only lets, and requires, them make a free and unbiased choice what they prefer.

    • But you must admit, their failure to require people to buy electric cars is limiting their choices. Oh, wait - they have more choices, just so many of them being WRONG choices, as far as the government is concerned.

      • In Australia, the price for power and fuel are different than in much of the rest of the world, precisely because of government. They should undo the shit-system they have now for power before trying to incentivize more electrical consumption.

        • 2.5c per km driven I think.

          Governments get a lot of revenue from petrol taxes, so when the world goes electric this will hurt them. So they start the tax now.

          Electric cars burn coal in Australia, because that is where the electricity comes from. Better to burn petrol. Maybe in 10 years time, that will change (it should with the new Labor government.)

          Air pollution is not an issue for most of Australia, except maybe occasionally in western Sydney. And nobody cares what happens to people in western Sydney.

    • Re:Little bit of politicianspeak here (Score:5, Informative)

      by gravewax ( 4772409 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @06:05PM (#62805029)
      Actually quite a bit of pollie BS in this as Australia does have emission standards. However, the emission standards are a bit low and hence manufacturers target us more for the less efficient models that they can no longer sell in Europe, emission and efficiency standards are still much higher than for instance the USA where many of the vehicles sold their would not be allowed here without modification to the fuel efficiency.

      The part that is accurate is we are being limited in our choice, many EV manufacturers are choosing not to bring their EV cars here as the market is not huge to begin with and they have other non EV models that they need to offload so it works well for them to just bring the ICE models.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by caseih ( 160668 )

        Don't confuse emissions and efficiency. In many cases they are directly at odds with each other. For example, Australia still allows big diesel ag engines to be Tier 3, which has less EGR and no SCR, making them run more efficiently and much much more reliably, if emitting slightly more NOx and particulates than allowed in Europe. I've always thought you guys were more sane down there in that regard.

    • Re:Little bit of politicianspeak here (Score:5, Interesting)

      by jonwil ( 467024 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @06:23PM (#62805069)

      The issues isn't that people can't buy electric cars, its that manufacturers of electric cars are choosing to sell electric cars (especially cheaper electric cars) in markets like the EU where fuel efficiency standards are already a thing rather than in Australia where there is no incentive to sell them.

      These new measures will provide an incentive for manufacturers to release more EV models on the Australian market. (someone high up at Volkswagen Auto Group actually came out and said that the lack of strict fuel efficiency and emissions standards is the reason VAG doesn't sell more EVs in Australia)

      • The issues isn't that people can't buy electric cars, its that manufacturers of electric cars are choosing to sell electric cars (especially cheaper electric cars) in markets like the EU where fuel efficiency standards are already a thing rather than in Australia where there is no incentive to sell them.

        Manufacturers have exactly the same incentive to sell EVs in Australia as Austria. I don't think VW gives a hoot where they sell the car as long as they make the same profit.

        I think your statement also implicitly assumes a company can only make so many EVs and has to carefully allocate cars to countries. No doubt there's some truth there. But no company allows that situation to last for long. They'll ramp up production of in-demand products as fast as possible, probably cannibalizing sluggish products in th

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by dwywit ( 1109409 )

          You're right about our preferences.

          Distance. I know people who commute a distance of 120+ km daily - that's 60km there, and 60km home again. That's become less of an issue recently with work-from-home, but distance is still an issue here. Owning one or two EVs for daily use shopping or commuting doesn't stop the need for an ICE whenever distance enters the discussion.

          Infrastructure - we simply don't have the network of charging stations for ad-hoc use (as opposed to charging your EV at home overnight). I'm

    • Re: (Score:1, Insightful)

      by thosdot ( 659245 )
      Don't be obtuse. The problem over here is that because the guvmint of the day (before May this year it was a conservative government for 20 out of 26 years) failed to improve our emission standards to those of say Europe, or introduce something like CAFE. There was no incentive for manufacturers to bring in an EV knowing that they would sell as many fossil-fuelled engined ones as they brought in. There are hurdles to getting a car approved for import, not minor ones either. We get a handful of EVs currently

      • There was no incentive for manufacturers to bring in an EV knowing that they would sell as many fossil-fuelled engined ones as they brought in.

        That makes it seems like customers have no input here. "Here's your damn car, take it or leave it. Any color you want as long as it's black."

        Manufacturers will only import cars if they think they can sell them (for a profit). If consumers were clamoring for EVs, EVs would come pouring in. However, what you seem to be saying is Australian customers far prefer gas-powered vehicles.

        • I was under the impression that manufacturers are building electric cars as fast as they can. More people are not buy them because the supply is limited.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward
        That is just garbage, Australia moved to the same emissions standards as the EU around 2012 or so, the problem though is since then the EU has transitioned to an even stricter model.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Little bit of politicianspeak here (Score:4, Insightful)

      by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Saturday August 20, 2022 @08:30AM (#62805995)

      Not subsidizing electric vehicles or penalizing gas cars doesn't deny anyone anything.

      False. The subsidies and local regulations directly drive what vehicles are made available to a market. e.g. there's a reason why there were for a long time nearly every car in Europe was a diesel and nearly every car in Australia was a petrol car (with the exception of 4wds)

      Live in Australia? Go to www.renault.com.au and buy yourself an electric car, oh you can't they aren't available. Okay fine, Renault was never that popular. But maybe we can look to the several Volkswagons that make up the most popular EV list on the Australian website. ... Aaaaaand there's none.
      We get it, Australian's don't like European cars. They go mad for something like a Kia. So just as well you can buy one of 2 EVs from Kia in Australia. That's a win right? I mean you don't get the full list of 14 different models covering 5 different model lines like you do elsewhere, but hey choice amirite?

      But really what you need is an iconic Ford. This is STRAYA after all. You either drive a Holden or a Ford or you're a nobody. Well precisely ZERO of the 6 EVs/PHEV Ford sells in Europe are available in Australia.

      So don't tell us about fucking choice.

      • False. The subsidies and local regulations directly drive what vehicles are made available to a market...

        Not literally true, at least not the subsidy part. Customer preferences directly drive what vehicles are available. If customers are buying EVs as fast as they arrive at higher than MSRP, manufacturers will find a way to import them. Subsidies indirectly drive demand because they change the price curve. Make things cheaper and that tends to increase demand. But that's an indirect effect, not a direct one. Yes, I'm being pedantic.

        I can't really address the regulation part because I don't know what regulation

        • Customer preferences directly drive what vehicles are available.

          No they don't. Availability bias customer preference. You can see that in the data. 98% of Australians buy petrol vehicles showing a clear customer preference.

          Here's a thought experiment for you:
          I have on offer 2 vehicles. One's a really nice petrol car, the other is an EV.
          I want to sell petrol cars, not EVs. So I designed the EV to smell like dogshit.
          You want to drive an EV but you will never buy a car that smells like dogshit.

          Which car would you buy, and what do you think the preference data will show aft

  • Uptake of EV's (Score:3)

    by CrimsonAvenger ( 580665 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @05:49PM (#62805001)

    The real question is "can the average Australian afford an electric car?"

    Because, without an affordable EV, people will just keep on nursing what they've got till it collapses into a heap of rust.

    Similar problem in the USA. EV's are expensive. Upper class types have no problems, but the average Joe doesn't have $60K for an EV, so as long as EV's cost twice as much as a "conventional" car, people will nurse that conventional car till it does a One-Hoss-Shay....

    • The poor people who can only afford 1 car to drive need a car that can be used for everything, daily life and ability for things like taking trips and even towing a trailer. EV's can fit daily life stuff but rest of the list EV tend to fall short in terms of being able to make it on 1 charge and recharging being relatively slow and limited option's. When you add a trailer in all this that makes trip even worse when you lose a good 60+% of EV's range when you hook it up. Like Ford f150 EV that has 300+ mile

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Teckla ( 630646 )

        The poor people who can only afford 1 car to drive need a car that can be used for everything, daily life and ability for things like taking trips and even towing a trailer.

        Don't underestimate the power of an econobox for day-to-day driving (whether it's gas or electric) and renting for those occasional trips!

      • Why are you combining poor people who can afford only one car, with people who tow trailers, and with people who drive luxury F 150 ?

        The car is the most expensive thing people buy if they dont own homes. It sits idle, unused for 95% of its life.

        We structured the entire city/suburban life/work/leisure around cars that we forced almost every one to buy cars. With smart phones, and ride hailing, the bottom section of people who drive less than 6000 miles a year might stop buying cars. People with towing ne

    • and can average australian charge an electric car, the whole continent has only 3,000 stations of which 2500 are standard voltage. Charging for hours if you can even find a station is a no-go

      • ha, haa. A typical gas car user who can buy fuel only at gas stations. And gas stations are stinky and inconvenient, people dont want spend much time there. They minimize the number of visits by running the tank dry and filling to the brim. Fuel up as quickly as possible and leave to stark, desolate, depression inducing gas stations.

        And you assume EV owners will do the same. No. We take one second to plug the car in when we pull in and the car is always charged to 80% or 90% every day.

        What about people

        • Considering the ELECTRICAL power sources available to cars in general, "at home" is the most reliable. The local campus I have access to is "well equipped" with power... to handle 10 or so cars per shift, assuming people "plug in" when they arrive, and "unplug" when they leave, 1 to 3 hours later.

          If they get a significant number of rechargeable vehicles, they'll need to increase the number of charging stations to cover it, or present a way that the existing stations can handle more cars sequential.

          This is q

        • There are gas stations everywhere though, and people only need to spend 4 minutes there. After than 4 minutes I can drive over 400 miles, you'll never do that.

          You make absurd assertion about "car is always charged to 80 to 90 percent every day.", utter rubbish that is only considering your own situation and apparently short commute.

          Battery swapping and not even owning the battery would be smart solution to making EV compelling in both price and allowing short station time, but USA thus far isn't that smart

    • Re:Uptake of EV's (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @06:06PM (#62805033)

      The affordable EV problem, is really due to a lack of supply for used EV.
      The upper middle class can afford a new EV. However being that the average price of a new car of any type today is Around 50k,. The people of average to below average income need to reley on good Used Cars, that cost 20-30k off what is new. And a few K for cars that have high mileage, where the people who are considered poor can afford.

      EV currently have a high resale value, and due to mechanical simplicity, they tend to be more reliable, and being rather new on the market used chrsp EV are hard to find.

      While we are getting some affordable EV like the Chevy Bolt which is about 25k there isn't enough price diversity in Electric models yet. Japan is super late to EV market so the Toyota and Honda which tend to be the everyman car still isn't available yet.

      Unfortunately while there is customer demand for EVs many of the automakers don't have a big insensitive to change their designs, and Government insensitives and regulations may be the only way to really give what customers want.

    • Similar problem in the USA. EV's are expensive. Upper class types have no problems, but the average Joe doesn't have $60K for an EV, so as long as EV's cost twice as much as a "conventional" car, people will nurse that conventional car till it does a One-Hoss-Shay....

      Australia (and US) should both be pushing harder on PHEVs - they make up for a lot of the shortcomings on BEVs.

      The smaller battery makes the vehicle much cheaper and lighter (compared to full BEV), but is enough that most days you can do all your running about town without turning on the the motor. Recharge at home at night. And best of all, no range anxiety/if you need to do that big road trip - just pull in an fill it up like a normal car.

      On my use pattern I reckon I would go from using fossil fuels for 1

      • Re:Uptake of EV's (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Teckla ( 630646 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:48PM (#62805275)

        Australia (and US) should both be pushing harder on PHEVs - they make up for a lot of the shortcomings on BEVs.

        A buddy of mine is a district manager for Toyota in the U.S. and he tells me PHEVs are the worst of both worlds when it comes to maintenance because they have all the issues of both a gas car and an electric car.

        In his opinion the better mileage ends up not being worth it.

        • A buddy of mine is a district manager for Toyota in the U.S. and he tells me PHEVs are the worst of both worlds when it comes to maintenance because they have all the issues of both a gas car and an electric car.

          Backups are always additional points of failure. Would not avoid them for that reason though.

          • There's definitely something of a common myth here.

            People said the Prius would be unreliable for similar reasons.

            25 years down the track, the tech is better tested, and the hybrid tech has proven to be perfectly reliable. More high capacity battery and motors have moved us past the KERS (kinetic energy recovery) style system to a genuine all electric drivetrain.

            As ever, I think people are just seeing what they want to see.

      • The battery prices right now is about 120 $/kWh at OEM and 150 $/kWh retail. At these prices hybrids might make sense.

        But battery prices are falling by 10 to 15% a year and have been falling for decades. Batteries used to be so expensive we used to measure their capacity in milli-ampere-hours! Remember cell phone batteries and power banks rated like 2600 mAh ? Now we are measuring it in kWh. Typically a kWh is 100 times bigger than 1 milli ampere hour for typical cell voltages.

        So as battery prices fall,

      • The smaller battery makes the vehicle much cheaper and lighter (compared to full BEV)

        Errr no. PHEVs are often heavier and usually equal in weight. They need a whole extra engine block for gods sake.

        And best of all, no range anxiety/if you need to do that big road trip - just pull in an fill it up like a normal car.

        Funny you mention that, we just did a road trip to Poland in our petrol car. Every 2-3 hours we stopped for 15-30min for lunch, toilet breaks, driver change, and petrol. If you're not stopping for that length of time every couple of hours you're a reckless idiot that's a danger to yourself and others. And when you are taking the Australian government's advice for management of driver fatigue then

        • The smaller battery makes the vehicle much cheaper and lighter (compared to full BEV)

          Errr no. PHEVs are often heavier and usually equal in weight. They need a whole extra engine block for gods sake.

          Thank you for challenging my assumption. I used the Hyundai Ioniq as it comes in PHEV and BEV mode (about as close as you can get to an oranges and oranges comparison. The BEV is heavier, although by less than I had assumed.

          Funny you mention that, we just did a road trip to Poland in our petrol car. Every 2-3 hours we stopped for 15-30min for lunch, toilet breaks, driver change, and petrol. If you're not stopping for that length of time every couple of hours you're a reckless idiot that's a danger to yourself and others. And when you are taking the Australian government's advice for management of driver fatigue then you will have no range anxiety because you'll get to your next stop with a large part of your battery still charged.

          Seems you have an axe to grind and are making some assumptions, but I'll try and sketch out the Australian situation, which you probably don't get because Australia and Poland have very different population densities and distributions. The problem is Australia's fast charge infrastructur

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by PPH ( 736903 )

      people will just keep on nursing what they've got till it collapses into a heap of rust

      This [pics.me.me]. It's a well known sentiment the Australians have toward their auto market.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Teckla ( 630646 )

      Similar problem in the USA. EV's are expensive. Upper class types have no problems, but the average Joe doesn't have $60K for an EV, so as long as EV's cost twice as much as a "conventional" car, people will nurse that conventional car till it does a One-Hoss-Shay....

      I agree that EVs are expensive... but where did you get $60k and "cost twice as much" from?

      In my local area, Nissan LEAFs are $28,xxx new and well under $20,xxx used.

    • The real question is "can the average Australian afford an electric car?"

      No doubt. Cost is a huge factor in determining preferences. That observation is the foundation of all of Economics.

      So what TFA is really saying is "Australian drivers have the wrong preferences, I want to make gas-powered cars more expensive and EVs cheaper to change those preferences." Which is a lot more believable than "poor Oz drivers, the evil car companies won't sell them the EVs they desperately want."

    • It is true EVs are still in the near-luxury segment of the market and middle class can't afford them today. But the situation will not remain so for a long time. All the car makers are moving to EVs, and the demand at this segment is likely to be saturated soon. The competition will bring the price down. EV cost of manufacturing has been trending down and ICEV production costs have reached their minima. Hybrids will make it worse.

      Long before the laws sun setting the use of gas cars, the manufacturers will

    • My brother's family prefers e-bikes, to work, to travel, and every time the breeze passes through the bike helmet, it's a great feeling. https://electricbikespace.com/... [electricbikespace.com]

  • Not solving the issues (Score:3, Insightful)

    by paulidale ( 6575732 ) on Friday August 19, 2022 @07:32PM (#62805185)
    This is crazy. Regulating the car emissions isn't going to change anything. There is are very good reasons Australians aren't adopting electric cars in droves. The infrastructure isn't there and distances are huge. Electric cars don't have the range (yet) and are slow to recharge. Australia suffers from a tyranny of distance with a relative small population. It's similar size to the contiguous US states with a tenth of the population and far larger gaps between settlements. Without a large population, building the required infrastructure costs too much. I will admit that EVs are perfect for driving around town and short distances and most travel is of this nature. However, few can afford a second vehicle for long distance trips. Price is a factor too, EVs are much more expensive to purchase here. This should even out in due course but it will take a while yet.
    • That's just bad stats. The population density of Australia is about 1/10th of the USA but the vast majority live in cities on or near the coast. Very few people live in the interior.

      OTOH, Sydney, Melbourne & Perth do have problems with suburban sprawl (Perth's is the furthest in the world, at 150km) but nothing that EVs can't already handle with at-work charging at distances over 130km. But who the fuck wants to drive 300km to & from work every day?

      And yes, regulations, taxes & subsidies will

    • Most Aussies live in a thin green belt that hugs the coastline and drive about 30km a day. The great Aussie road trip is largely a myth. Most city dwellers (and most Aussies are city dwellers) could easily manage with existing BEV ranges (and significantly less) and generally get on airplanes for any significant travel (say Sydney - Melbourne - the 5th busiest air corridor in the world).

      You can rent an ICE car, or use one of the excellent PHEVs for the road trip application.

      The tyranny of distance is defini

    • This is crazy. Regulating the car emissions isn't going to change anything.

      Said by literally everyone in every country which introduced emissions.

      The infrastructure isn't there and distances are huge.

      Most of the Australian population lives in a city where distances are irrelevant.

      Electric cars don't have the range (yet) and are slow to recharge.

      Electric cars can be almost fully recharged during the recommended break period the government gives to prevent driver fatigue, and with the break interval they can easily make it to the next charger with half a "tank" still charged. If you can't do this, I recommend you stop being a danger to yourself and others on the road. Drowsy Drivers Die.

      Without a large population, building the required infrastructure costs too much.

      Australia's u

  • Hold on to your pocketbooks, Oz, they're being picked.

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