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Google Businesses Technology

Google Urges US To Update Immigration Rules To Attract More AI Talent (theverge.com) 98

Posted by msmash from the tussle-continues dept.
The US could lose out on valuable AI and tech talent if some of its immigration policies are not modernized, Google says in a letter sent to the Department of Labor. From a report: Google says policies like Schedule A, a list of occupations the government "pre-certified" as not having enough American workers, have to be more flexible and move faster to meet demand in technologies like AI and cybersecurity. The company says the government must update Schedule A to include AI and cybersecurity and do so more regularly.

"There's wide recognition that there is a global shortage of talent in AI, but the fact remains that the US is one of the harder places to bring talent from abroad, and we risk losing out on some of the most highly sought-after people in the world," Karan Bhatia, head of government affairs and public policy at Google, tells The Verge. He noted that the occupations in Schedule A have not been updated in 20 years.

Companies can apply for permanent residencies, colloquially known as green cards, for employees. The Department of Labor requires companies to get a permanent labor certification (PERM) proving there is a shortage of workers in that role. That process may take time, so the government "pre-certified" some jobs through Schedule A. The US Citizenship and Immigration Services lists Schedule A occupations as physical therapists, professional nurses, or "immigrants of exceptional ability in the sciences or arts." While the wait time for a green card isn't reduced, Google says Schedule A cuts down the processing time by about a year.

Google Urges US To Update Immigration Rules To Attract More AI Talent More | Reply

Google Urges US To Update Immigration Rules To Attract More AI Talent

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  • Hey, Google... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TigerPlish ( 174064 ) on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @02:05PM (#64439426)

    Hey, Google Assholes...

    How about you train-up some American talent? Go to high schools, like the car makers used to, pick the most talented / gifted / hardworking students, and see if you can make something of them?

    But of course not, you're going to just grab for India, as always, instead of helping our students get a leg up.

    There was a time when GM / Ford / Mopar would take you, train you, teach you how to machine and stamp and weld, and then you worked for them for a long time. Maybe even make enough to buy a house and start a family.

      Somewhere along the line, maybe the 70's or 80's this stopped, and suddenly any new hires need to be superstars just to make it into the door.

    We need to re-establish the Social Contract with our own people, not keep importing more cheap labor.

    • Because they want wage slaves (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Baloo Uriza ( 1582831 ) <baloo@ursamundi.org> on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @02:26PM (#64439522) Homepage Journal
      Why hire American when you can bring someone to America, pay them minimum wage, claim they're tipped to bring that down even further, and if they complain, fire them and let the State Department deport 'em?

      • Why hire American when you can bring someone to America, pay them minimum wage, claim they're tipped to bring that down even further, and if they complain, fire them and let the State Department deport 'em?

        Well, that approach certainly creates the indentured servitude [wikipedia.org] like system with all the requisite atmosphere of anxiety and fear that modern executives seem consider is essential to the smooth running of a modern corporation.

      • Why hire American when you can bring someone to America, pay them minimum wage, claim they're tipped to bring that down even further, and if they complain, fire them and let the State Department deport 'em?

        Google pays its H1-B workers the same as US citizens, or green card holders, etc. There's no cost savings to be had there.

        • Importing a H1B worker, even if paid the same as a US worker is not the same.

          The H1B worker is tied to the employer for 3 years.

          Lose your job and you will get deported.
          Refuse to work 99 hours a week, you will be eventually let go and deported.
          File a labor complaint, you will be eventually let go and deported.
          Take too many vacation days, you will eventually be let go and deported.
          Complain about work assignments, you will eventually be let go and deported.

          And the pay is US equivalent but at the low low end of

          • Importing a H1B worker, even if paid the same as a US worker is not the same.

            Certainly there are differences, I was addressing pay.

            One prefatory comment before I respond to the rest: I am in no way claiming that H1-Bs aren't terribly abused by many companies. I know they are; I've seen it firsthand (before joining Google). But the context of this discussion is Google, and in nearly 15 years at Google, many of them as a manager, including of H1-B holders, I have never seen any abusive behavior. Moreover, no one I know had seen or heard of any, nor would they stand for it.

            If I

          • My experience back in Portland, the big employers (at the time) like Intel, Tek and Lockheed-Martin would list serious lowballs (like, make better money at Taco Bell) that they would never interview for, for months in the papers, then whine to immigration that they need H1Bs because nobody will do software QA or do deskside support or work in a cleanroom for a McWage.

    • Hey, Google Assholes...

      How about you train-up some American talent? Go to high schools, like the car makers used to, pick the most talented / gifted / hardworking students, and see if you can make something of them?

      Because training for cutting-edge technology is much more difficult and specialized than teaching someone how to work in a 60s-era automotive factory. Google does too many things already, it would be kinda foolish for them to get into the education business and fuck that up the way Sundar Pichai is doing with Google as a whole.

      Would you say the same to a biotech company?...hey Pfizer....stop looking globally for international cancer experts and just train up some smart high schooler and make them cancer

      • Yeah, you'll have to forgive folks for not believing it's different this time. Could have something to do with the constant stream of lies and deception around this topic in the past.

    • We need to re-establish the Social Contract with our own people, not keep importing more cheap labor.

      The Social Contract still exists, it's just been altered. It now reads, "All people will be subject to the whims of for-profit industry and those that have enough money to own for-profit industry sectors. When confused, please re-read the first sentence."

      • Hehe, they've "socially contracted" to use government to erase your natural rights, impoverish anyone not in their various clubs, and make sure there isn't enough social mobility to change anything or let in any new ideas (or old ones, like Freedom or Liberty).

    • India spends a fraction of what the US spends per child on education, how do they have more trained AI workers? Could
      It be our kids don't care about boring stuff like learning to program AI?

    • Kids don't wanna learn that crap. It's boring.

    • How about you train-up some American talent?

      If just anyone could be trained up, that might make sense, but there's a big element of native talent and intelligence needed, and the US only has about 4% of the world's population. It makes a lot of business sense to look into the other 96% to see what you can find there. And its the moral thing to do, too. Kids in the US are already massively advantaged by their lucky break of being born here. Why not give others a chance?

      Go to high schools, like the car makers used to, pick the most talented / gifted / hardworking students, and see if you can make something of them?

      Google actually does that except they start a little bit later, with college freshm

    • Who should get trained? Whenever we have articles about forced computer science training in the US and coding being a required subject you same idiots claim it's not needed. Meanwhile, developers are pulling in 6 figure salaries .. so why in God's name are people still working retail and fast food WHEN YOU CAN GET TRAINED AND CERTIFIED on anything online for dirt CHEAP, if you're poor and want in-person classes .. community college is cheap or free with federal loans. There's really no excuse for bullshit n

    • How about you train-up some American talent? Go to high schools, like the car makers used to, pick the most talented / gifted / hardworking students, and see if you can make something of them?

      Training them is someone else's job. Let someone else pay to find out if the person can be useful or not. India has people pre-made for companies like Google so of course they will get their employees from there. It is a global market of (but not for) labor.

  • Didn't google just layoff a bunch of workers? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ebunga ( 95613 ) on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @02:05PM (#64439428)

    No special immigration programs for you if you're not smart enough to move programmers from one department to another.

    • Let's make up our minds, please. Either programmers are interchangeable cogs, to be swapped or transferred arbitrarily and without consequence, or they aren't.

      I work in a consultancy. Pretending programmers can be moved around like pawns is a great way to torpedo your efforts.

      • They can, to an extent. You do not maximize their abilities but you do at least start with a proven contributor. The problem is you can't reset their salary along with their expertise.

        • Well, that's a good point. I'll definitely grant you that. But in my experience, that does happen. Somebody that proves themselves valuable and flexible does get shifted when changes happen.

          What I find in developers is the same distribution curve that I find in every profession. That bell curve of capability is real. Some few are in the top tier, some people are in the bottom... and most people are jammed up in the middle.

          If you're after that top tier, you have to look far afield. Certainly beyond geographi

        • The problem is you can't reset their salary along with their expertise.

          I'm not exactly sure what you mean. So, sorry if I'm misinterpreting. However, I've certainly sat down devs before and reset their salary (in some fairly dramatic ways). I've never lowered salary but I've often raised it. Rather than lower salaries, I tend to simply fire the folks who are underperforming and free up the slot for someone better.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by The Cat ( 19816 )

        I've been programming computers for 48 years.

        Once you know how to fly, it doesn't make any difference what kind of plane they give you.

    • No special immigration programs for you if you're not smart enough to move programmers from one department to another.

      (Google) No Donor Class money for you unless we get our way.

      Those In Charge, have little to do with those In Control.

      This also explains why competency in Government leadership, is optional.

  • "AI" is a unemployment and homelessness program.
    • Only if your government lets AI kick people on the street. Remember the last presidential election? There was some crazy guy who's whole platform was UBI and the threat of automation. That guy seems pretty smart now. And how is the Forward Party doing this election cycle? Slow Slow progress: https://www.deseret.com/2024/2... [deseret.com]
  • also, $$$

  • Enough of flooding the country with people to vote the way you want and that you can get at a fraction of a normal person's salary

  • Karan Bhatia, head of government affairs and public policy at Google

    The name is a clue. India has become a colonial power.

  • Why do they have to move to US (Score:5, Insightful)

    by chipperdog ( 169552 ) on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @02:34PM (#64439552) Homepage
    With the connected world, one can code and attend meetings from anywhere? Why do they have to move to the US?

  • We can't allow an AI gap! (Score:3)

    by Chelloveck ( 14643 ) on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @02:45PM (#64439584)

    Google Urges US To Update Immigration Rules To Hire Cheaper Labor, Using FUD To Threaten A ${buzzword} Gap If Denied

    FTFY. HTH. HAND.

  • Here we go again (Score:5, Insightful)

    by smooth wombat ( 796938 ) on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @03:03PM (#64439652) Journal

    Anyone who has been following tech has seen this same sob story for decades. There is always an excuse why they can't find the "right" people. Even when there are recessions and people are being laid off left and right, "We can't find anyone!".

    Here's a small idea which could be implemented right now. Get rid of your shitty software which filters out anyone who doesn't have the exact words in their CV that you're looking for. Hire minions to manually review all the resumes and CVs which come in and I can guarantee you'll find the people you need.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Indeed. There are enough people around that can do these jobs. Find them, make them actually _good_ offers and this problem will go away. This is sheer leadership failure, nothing else.

    • Americans cost too much. It's more profitable to buy politicians and get foreigners to do the work.

      • Americans cost too much. It's more profitable to buy politicians and get foreigners to do the work.

        Google pays the foreigners the same as it pays Americans. Maybe a little bit more, if you count the free immigration attorney work.

        • Why would you lie when that's so easily fact-checked, and do so without at least posting as AC while you're trolling?

          Google's pay rate for a level 4 engineer in India is about 6.7m rupees which is roughly 80k USD. In California the same category averages around 280k USD.

          • Why would you lie when that's so easily fact-checked, and do so without at least posting as AC while you're trolling?

            Google's pay rate for a level 4 engineer in India is about 6.7m rupees which is roughly 80k USD. In California the same category averages around 280k USD.

            We're talking about H1-Bs, which means they're in the US, not in India. Don't be an asshole.

    • Look bro, they aren't ever going to treat people with basic human respect ever again. Google is completely dark now. They are just another soulless and accidentally evil corporation. (their goal isn't evil, but their motivations demand that evil occurs more often than not)

  • I'm sorry, we already have negative impacts from H1-B recipients, besides Cognizant, Wipro, Infosys, IBM and other outsources just love humping the legs of Congress to get more.

  • All you need to learn and innovate in AI is ... decent human intelligence and a computer. OK, I can imagine getting good trainingdata can be complicated. But all that has to be present in the US.

  • I don't understand why tech companies are so averse to training up employees?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by tbq ( 874261 )
      Because then their employees would want a raise.

      • This logic doesn't make sense. In all my years in the industry, the general wisdom is that if you want a proper raise you have to leave the company. It's usually cheaper for companies to promote rather than to bring in outside talent to fill a position.

  • If they are that good, surely they can work in their home country, self manage, and conduct meetings online, no? Isn't that the purpose of collaboration tools like Google Workspace?

  • we can brain wash them to make them woke enough for you

  • Saw the job descriptions asking for +5 years experience with ChatGPT requirements already in the mail box last month.
    Of course they were only willing to pay bananas.

  • Big IT, and IT in general really need to stop lying amd admit it just wants it easier yo bring in cheap labor. Stop the lying

  • I hear Google has about 200 core developers they could be training up now that the positions have been reassigned outside the USA.

  • Yea, push for more foreigners to come into the country, get paid less than Americans while at the same time they just announced moving those jobs out of the U.S. to India and Mexico. (see Slashdot article on that one!) It's all about money and nothing else, and most of the time the flow is too complex for even experts to see it.

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