We were live this morning to discuss the new Canon EOS RP mirrorless camera and to answer questions from our community. You can re-watch the video here, and we'll try to address those questions we couldn't get to in the comments below.
A friend has just bought an RP and I've had the opportunity to handle it and take a few photos. For what it's worth, my impressions were that it's very solidly made and fits the hands extremely well despite its small size. It felt well balanced with a 24-105mm zoom or with a 100mm macro, but despite having an excellent grip it didn't provide enough leverage when used with my 100-400mm.
Metering was extremely accurate. Autofocus (with adapted EF lenses) was quite fast and precise, especially when used in wide-area mode. When the AF point was set to the smallest size focus became less reliable, with some hesitation. Image quality (occ JPEG) was extremely good, almost on par with a 5DMkiv in terms of sharpness and freedom from high ISO noise.
Not a camera for "serious" photogarphers, but absolutely perfect for novices stepping up from a compact or an APS camera. I'd be very happy using one as a travel camera, or as a backup to a hi-end body.
1) People who own Canon cameras and are very happy with them. They won't want to switch brands.
2) Those who, rightly or wrongly, have preconceptions about Sony build quality and durability. They'll prefer to stay with Canon. Some will buy the EOS-R or wait for the expected "5DS - R" or "5DMkiv - R", but many will prefer to "dip their toes" into Canon FF mirrorless with a cheaper body.
3) Those who don't get on with Sony ergonomics, but like the perceived greater usability of Canon.
4) Those who prefer the styling of Canon to other brands.
5) Those who succumb to Canon's very powerful marketing machine. Canon, whether you love them or hate them, know better than anyone else how to advertise and *sell* cameras.
...BUT, I do agree that Sony (and Nikon) make cameras that are better specified.
... and Sony have a more extensive lens system.
Canon produce a far greater variety of lenses (wide aperture primes, tilt-shift, several macros etc), but they need (fully compatible) adaptors for the RF mount.
Sony produce a huge range of lenses that do not require adaptors, and also accept all the Canon lenses via Metabones.
Entoman, my reference to the A7III was just as a price/performance comparison - I don't expect Canon users to switch to Sony just because a certain camera is better value. I just think the RP is so poorly equipped for the money that it remains a questionable proposition, even to a Canon user. I fully understand people using cameras for reasons other than specification. I moved from 35mm to medium format in the 90s, which meant giving up AF and I didn't think twice about it. And I understand why people would buy the R, just not the RP.
The concept of 'dipping one's toes' in mirrorless is probably hard to comprehend for most mirrorless users as they're already in the pool. It feels a bit like saying 'I'm a tea drinker and tonight I'm going to have some friends around and we're going to try.. coffee!' And I don't think this is a good body to convey to DSLR users the strengths of mirrorless - it's more likely to confirm any prejudices they may have that mirrorless 'just isn't there yet'.
All of the new FF mirrorless manufacturers have followed Sony's model of using the SAME BODY for an enthusiast's and a semi-pro model - 24mp and circa 45mp. We have the Nikon z6 & 7 and Panasonic S1 and S1R and of course the A7rIII and A7III. Only Canon has taken a different path. I'm not surprised by that – Canon has always done their own thing, but here it seems deliberately perverse. What was stopping them putting the RP guts in the R body? At least buyers would have got a bigger battery and more controls.
As it stands they will have a two camera range like the other FF manufacturers but their bodies are not comparable. A Canon loyalist would say that Canon is the first manufacturer to introduce an entry level FF, but does such a market actually exist and if not can it be created? In my opinion a buyer who would be happy with the RP feature set and performance would be even happier with an M50 or M5 and kit lens.
The reality is Canon has two mirrorless FFs like everyone else but their cameras are not a like-for-like match - unlike everybody else's. They have entry level and mid range and everyone else has mid-range and semi-pro.
I don't see that changing soon either. A mirrorless version of the 5DS needs a new sensor for AF and wouldn't be competitive without IBIS (for both image stabilisation AND high resolution sensor shift). I'm sure it will come because the alternative - a sports/action camera is even more technically challenging.
RubberDials - I agree that from a users point of view Canon should have followed the Nikon and Panasonic route, producing 24MP and 45MP versions in basically the same body.
I particularly like the fact that both of my current bodies (5DS and 5DMkiv) are virtually identical, so switching between them is extremely easy. So much so that I often have to look at the model name on the front of the camera before I know which one I'm holding!
Canon would probably argue that they envisage completely different types of user for their various models, and that they tailor each model to the intended target buyers. So they have the RP for the entry-level FF mirrorless market, the EOS-R for the gimmick-crazy prosumer market, the upcoming "5DS - RF" for the serious hi-res user.
Eventually there'll also be a "1DX - RF" for the pro sports market (although the next sports camera will be another DSLR, the 1DX Mkiii, and there will also be a 80D-7DMkii DSLR successor pretty soon according the Canon News and Canon Rumors.
And yes, the sooner Canon incorporates IBIS, the better!
I'm primarily a macro photographer but I also do a lot of wildlife photography (including birds and insects in flight) and a lot of landscapes. For my photography mirrorless would offer several potential advantages including silent shutter, minimal vibration, IBIS, eye-AF for animals etc. I'm also reaching the stage where a reduction in weight would be welcome.
5DS-RF would potentially use a scaled up 24MP current generation Canon sensor (about 62MP) which should be plenty adequate for my needs. But really I need fast burst speeds for my bird and mammal photography, and I'm not sure a 5DS-RF would offer that (I currently use a 5DMkiv when I need faster fps than the 5DS can provide).
The Panasonic S1R appeals but doesn't have the lenses, and specialised optics such as macros are unlikely to arrive for quite a while (I don't rate Sigma macros highly, so it would have to be a Leica or Panasonic lens).
Right at this moment the most appealing camera for me is the Sony a7Riii, which is versatile enough to cover all my needs, and has all the "native" Sony lenses available. It would also be the most economic option. But I have reservations about whether the AF would perform as well as Canon in low light, with macro or long teles. And reservations about Sony ergonomics and durability.
So the short answer is that I just can't make up my mind, and will most likely stay with my existing gear for another year. But temptation might strike, and I might get a Sony a7Riii body and metabones to run alongside my Canon gear.
They say Canon is testing the new 1dx mark3 right now, So why would they want to hurt their pro line, This is a good step for them slowly moving into mirrorless, Sony never had a pro line so they didn't have to worry, Nikon is doing the same.
Canon is not 'slowly moving in to mirrorless'. It's moving extremely quickly. How else do you explain this camera having no kit lens and no kit lens on show amongst the mock ups either.
The 1DxIII (if it comes) has nothing to do with this camera.
In their understandable urge to slow the flow of people switching to Sony, I think Canon have made a mistake rushing out the EOS-R and now the RP, before they have affordable "native" RF lenses.
I hope they get moving quickly on the lens front, and release some affordable RF lenses, but equally I want them to release more specialised lenses, such as replacements for the ageing 100mm and 180mm macros.
I can't see them releasing a professional sports camera to replace the 1DXii yet, in fact I think most wildlife & sports pros would probably prefer to see a new 1DXiii rather than a mirrorless alternative.
Next in line will be a mirrorless replacement for the 5DSR, with IBIS, and a 62MP sensor based on a scaled up 80D sensor, and of course, an AF joystick.
Looking at selling my 77D privately and picking this up. As the body is the same size, perhaps RP is slighting smaller body. Add the adapter and FF kit lens Canon 24-105m f3.5-5.6 which is a remarkedly sharp lens and this would be a terrific camera, and offers much better low light iso. I can even add my 40mm f2.8 pancake efs lens (although MP is reduced to about 10 MP with crop), however again they have a 35mm R lens for about $450. right now (B&h) that makes this a compact camera to carry around with the primes. Why do they say this is not good for video - you get dual pixel autofocus with 1080 60P or 30P. Still perfect for vlogging or some light professional work on tripods or monopod. Sure not as good as R camera in video but good enought for some pro. Dpreveiw, my opinion is it can still be used for some pro work!, including family photography in live view for photos, so I can have more interaction with children. Bravo. I can also use my Nikon D750 for sports and action.
Thanks, I had not realized that, so thats good I get 26mp with 40mm pancake. I guess it was the 24mm pancake that is efs (apsc crop) then. Good to know th 40mm works well with this RP body (with adapter though).
next time dpr does this type of thing, throw in some cutaway shots... even photos of the body and lenses will work, gallery pics taken by the camera, etc.
I just love the wording about its video capabilities. As if the camera is not capabable of shooting videos. Video capability looks ok for a casual shooter. No buyer of this camera will have an expensive computer with video editing software who will work on a 4K video hours and hours shot during a bbq, birthday party etc. Mr. Butler keeps saying no pro level video specs therefore no good followed by comment it's not a pro level camera.
"expensive computer". $500 is enough to buy a computer that can edit UHD footage easily. And who needs to edit it? You can just watch it straight OOC. 4k video is present on every flagship smartphone you can buy, its not a pro feature anymore, its a consumer one. Why should a casual shooter accept lower quality video? I record my casual family video in sharp 4k.
Why is this not a video camera. Is the Canon 80D a video camera. This camera has more focus points on screen. It also takes 1080 HD in 60P like 80D but its low light iso capibility surpasses 80D and it offers clean 1080HD out in HDMI to external drive which 80D and 6D2 do not. Also has microphone and headphone jacks. This would be okay for short productions (short corporate use or vloggers), but not for heavy users for long duration video capture. Dpreview, I disagree with your assessment. There is a market for light video users on a budget to get Professional results. And for 4K if you lock down the caemra on tripod and use manual focus like users of the 5Diii have been doing for years, 4K will still work for short production. And the camera doubles for a travel camera with primes, which the R lens 35mm f1.8 at $450 at B&H keeps this camera compact and affordable. Do you disagree with this, dpreview? (For full time videographers with more budget, R is a better choice).
Lenses will become cheaper as more RF bodies flood the market. The first EOS DSLR didn't have the tons of EF lenses right away. Photography doesn't reward one-hit wonders. It is an ecosystem ballgame for the most part.
The market today is quite different from the days of DSLRs. The ILC market is quite small now. That's why camera manufacturers are shifting more towards a "cheap body, expensive lenses" strategy. That seems to be what Canon is doing with lenses like the $2300 RF 50/1.2L and $3000 RF 28-70/2L. They really can't afford to sell really cheap lenses anymore. Back when they sold *tons* of DSLRs, they could afford to sell cheaper lenses. Massive quantities of DSLR sales made up for the lower profit margins of cheap lenses. But now that camera sales are a fraction of what they used to be, they need to make up for that with pricier lens sales.
One reason why the RP will sell well: it's not just for those seeking entry into FF, but it's price point fits nicely for a whole lot of Canon DSLR owners who want to try out FF mirrorless.
I know a few people who fit this description; higher end DSLR users with a good collection of Canon glass, who want to try out Canon FF MILC. And they are also interested in trying out the stellar RF glass.
So part of Canon's strategy is simply to sell to their existing owners, since in a shrinking camera market this is probably their largest addressable market.
OMG! I’m sorry guys but this is painful to watch! Even the presenters are struggling to put a positive on this. Struggling badly!
The camera is bargain bucket material. Wait 6 months and you will be able to pick it up for half current RRP. Even then you will have paid more then its worth in 2019!
Portrait, Sports or Video? Richard said he wouldnt be looking at this camera so what is it good for. Sorry Canon, you stripped it back way too far.
Good luck to those that purchase. Might as well just flush your hard earned cash down the toilet!
It is doubtful that this camera will drop price by 50 percent in a year. At most Christmas or summer sales will be $100 or a bit more kitted with a lens also. For the price lots of Rebel users who wanted to try full frame will find this affordable so I am thinking Canon has a hit on its hands, as the compact size and the quality of the 6Dii sensor is included in this camera will appeal to lots of people. Add the decent Canon 24-105mm f3.5-5.6 and image quality is very good indeed. I have that lens and it is very sharp. 3 aspherical lenses and 1 low dispersion lens in that lens and this is one of the best kits ever launched with 6Dii. The $99 adapter to EF is now free with body with many RP cameras. what is not to love. Only that you wished they would offer all the features of the R camera for $1000 less? Image photo quality at FF with this one lens or the RP 35mm f1.8 for $450 (at B&H Photos) is very decent and very good quality. Wtith a prime this RP can also be a great street camera.
Two marketing trends that make absolutely no sense:
1. "Small and cheap entry level full frame cameras" that use very heavy and very expensive full frame lenses. The net result is neither small nor cheap.
2. "Big and heavy pro grade M4/3 cameras" that require the biggest and most expensive M4/3 lenses". The net result is only "pro grade" in a few very specific circumstances.
However, I would contend that terms like cheap and small are relative. To some an EOS RP + RF 35 will be an acceptable cost and weight for FF quality and performance.
I think the mismatch won’t last for long. They probably want to make a statement here, stressing the new generation lenses and the system based on 54 mm diameter mount. The lower spec lenses are sure to follow, probably very compact lenses at some point I imagine. Otherwise the segment seems to be a good way of expanding the use of the resources spent on their sensor, making the most out of their R&D. It’s also disruptive towards the competition, kind of another statement in other direction.
I think HSway is absolutely right. Those budget lenses will follow. I think Canon got the RP out quickly just to throw the gauntlet down, but is also planning to follow up with a few kit lenses for it. They would be crazy if they didn't.
So what? Canon is putting out these lenses now so they will be available when the pro R body is introduced later his year. It's not like buyers are forced to use these lenses when they can simply buy a cheap(er) EF lens with an adapter right?
Had Canon introduced their pro camera first, the very first thing people would complain of is not having quality glass to go with it. Canon is doing the right thing here.
Yes, Canon has the order of release correct. When a pro body hits, they need the lenses to be there for anyone to be interested in it. Otherwise, the complaints would be obvious: why launch a pro body without any good lenses?
For the lower priced mirrorless models, as noted people can use inexpensive EF glass with the free adapter. Many will coming into the RP also owning other Canon DSLRs. And guess what? It is a myth that someone buying the RP cannot or would not buy one of the more expensive RF lenses. Some will. And those lenses will still make a big difference on the RP, and will last a very long time and be around for when the person upgrades.
In fact, the smart strategy would be to save money and get the less expensive body and invest it in the lenses. That's an attitude you don't see much on these forums or in reviews but it would be the rational decision for someone on a budget.
Re: "Big and heavy pro grade M4/3 cameras" - I have a Panasonic G9 and love it. It is only big for m43. It is not heavy. and re: "that require the biggest and most expensive M4/3 lenses" It still takes the 25mm f/1.4 and the very small, light and cute 42.5mm f/1.7 as well as all the other m43 lenses I have (notably 14-140 II and 100-300 II). These are not the biggest, most expensive, pro lenses ... not in my photo budget. But it makes me quite happy.
@thoughts "Otherwise, the complaints would be obvious: why launch a pro body without any good lenses?" - .... because you could use your existing pro grade L lenses on it easily?
You guys missed the point of this camera: it’s meant for beginners! The adapter it comes with and the RF lens prices tell you the RF lenses are not for this camera. The EF lenses are smaller, cheaper, and plentiful. 1080p with DPAF is plenty. Canon will sell a boat load of these!
It's also for those who have Canon DSLR's and want to dip their toe into the mirrorless FF waters. I know a few of those people...who have high end Canon DSLRs and will add this RP to their kit to experience the mirrorless tech.
I do agree that this RP will sell very well. It's a great affordable, easy to use, light weight, quality build and feel, camera.
Really? You berate Sony for their build quality, now this plastic fantastic camera with zero seals comes out, and you praise it? Your trolling knows no ends.
@BBT: When Canon uses plastic they use it in quality ways. I remember one time there was a video where a Rebel camera had fallen out of a small plane and someone recovered it and it still worked. Plastic can be done right. BTW, there is a magnesium metal core inside.
From all reports this camera has the feel of quality.
It's funny but all you can do is cite statistics and not actual usage. I've held quite a few of the Sony bodies, and tried out the a9 extensively. Not a single one feels that great to hold or use.
So yes, I would say that odds are this camera has a quality build and feel. And notice that in my post I didn't mention Sony at all; this is an article on the Canon. So who is doing the trolling? Maybe you are projecting onto others?
"When Canon uses plastic they use it in quality ways."
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
"BTW, there is a magnesium metal core inside."
Which only protects the mount from the heavy RP lenses.
"From all reports this camera has the feel of quality."
Plastic is plastic. Texture and reinforcement placement on tacticle surfaces give impressions. Cracks shatter that impression. This is cost cutting, plain and simple.
"Not a single one feels that great to hold or use."
But we're talking about materials. A rock doesn't feel great, but it's incredibly durable. A snowglobe is smooth, round, and comfy, but don't knock it on the table when putting it down!
"And notice that in my post I didn't mention Sony at all; this is an article on the Canon."
Yes, it's true that Canon has a reputation for build quality and unfortunately Sony does not. What you write will not change that.
And yes, a camera and any product you hold and use does have a certain feel that is important. Do you deny that? Sony doesn't seem to understand it that well, at least not yet. There is an experience to using a camera; that's part of the joy.
And again, this whole article is about a new Canon camera. Why do you find it necessary to come into every discussion about any camera other than Sony and criticize that camera?
Roger Cicala said it best: A puritan is someone who doesn't want others to be happy. A Sony person is someone who doesn't want users of other brands to be happy.
@Thoughts R Us - "When Canon uses plastic they use it in quality ways."
Hahahahaha. Wow, some people are just desperate apologists. Meanwhile, bodies like the A7II, A7III, and A9 use all-magnesium bodies, and people like Thoughts R Us is constantly saying that these bodies have poor build! Wow. Just wow. Do people such as Thoughts R Us have any self-awareness? Do they even know how desperate they sound? No, they don't. It's funny and sad to see how desperate these people are behaving.
"A Sony person is someone who doesn't want users of other brands to be happy."
Do you realize that almost all "Sony people" have come from other brands, such as Canon and Nikon!??!?! The reality is that it's defensive "Canon people" who don't want users of other brands to be happy because they want to maintain the status quo of blind loyalty to the Canon brand. That's sad and pathetic. Fortunately, many users are much more open-minded and open to change than some desperate Canon defenders.
Wrong! This camera is for pros and beginners and enthusiasts. Canon has a short video commercial for this RP being perfect for family photography and for engagement sessions with stellar results. For photo this camera is as least as good a sensor as 6D2 and if the lenses are good the images are too. Pros wanting a second body will buy this one for compact size. Rebel users upgrading may buy this.
@Adrian-Van - Sure, a pro can use this camera and get good results. That can be said about practically any camera. But most pros would prefer something more robust than a plastic body, shoots more than 250 shots per battery, offers dual card slots, shoots faster than 4fps in continuous AF, and at least takes a battery grip for longer shooting (which the RP does not). With all these weaknesses, I can't see many pros gravitating to this camera.
I have to point out that for the existing 6D crowd, you guys did not explain the benefits of the RP providing facial tracking, wider AF coverage, and presently a bundled adapter enabling you to bring every EF lens to it vs the 6DII which presently sells for the same/more.
That's a lot of potential buyers you guys just missed and wrote off as the RP is a sort of mirrorless 6DII-repeat, except, it buys you a seat at the RF table, with that RF 35mm you guys also skipped over as a small, economical lens for the RP that is normally referred to as the street lens (35mm). Lots of folks can live off that alone in the form of a X100 series for example. Regarding the comment, as far as it can't do a little bit of sports or portraiture or video? This is a camera, isn't it?
I think, like the RP, for repeat, perhaps your Q&A needs a repeat or else it's not accurately portraying the camera, or promoting it, except for: Family? iPhone upgraders? I might agree but the large 6D community too perhaps?
It's simple. There's seems to be a deliberate strategy by Sony to denigrate other brands on social media and forums. Everyone notices that only the Sony folks are so aggressive in putting down other brands.
@Thoughts R Us Most Sony user denigrating Canon are Canon users fed up with Canon marketing strategies and felt like being somewhat teased or betrayed by Canon and painfully migrated to Sony, accepting Sony quirks adapted lenses and more, yet feeling liberated from Canon system entrapment. So every time Canon keeps on repeating itself, feeding crumbs to the loyal customers they still feel it on their own skin and like to share it.
@Thoughts R Us: Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. After several months on this site and participating in these discussions, I have to believe that this is part of a very deliberate strategy. You see very few Canon and Nikon users doing the reverse.
It’s not Sony users, all owners are bad. I guess because cameras are expensive and they want to justify their choice in a highly competitive marketplace and avoid post purchase dissonance.
I would think that post purchase dissonance is best avoided by taking photographs that make use of the "extra" featured of the new camera and not by putting down other cameras in a comment section. I would think if you have to justify it by dozens of comments in another camera's review, may be those features are not so useful?
@Grapejam: The RP does not have the 5D IV price either. And perhaps those 6D people know what they are doing? As I pointed out in another comment, photographers who know more than either of us don't seem to have any trouble getting amazing results with the 6D. I see it in my astronomy club as well, where people use the 6D and take amazing astro landscapes and deep sky images. If you feel the need to look down on others to feel better about your equipment, I think that says something about you, not them.
@User: I agree...most Sony owners are very nice people. But I do believe there is a paid social media campaign by Sony. Many of the militant Sony people may not even own Sony devices but are paid to criticize other brands.
@armandino: I think most of the critics are paid by Sony and it doesn't really matter what their past experience is with any brand. If someone leaves one brand to find something they like better in another, they typically don't go back and constantly criticize their old brand; they enjoy their new one. It would be like constantly going back to an ex-spouse to complain once you've remarried. Weird.
The bottom line is that everyone sees what's going on: I don't care if it's a new Canon camera, Nikon, Fuji, etc..if there's an article on it then you can bet their will be the Sony army descend to criticize. We've seen it with the highly reviewed Fuji X-T3, the Fuji medium format cameras, the Panasonic L series, etc.
Yes, of course, the "poor" dynamic range of Canon cameras. It is a wonder people manage to use them at all. One look at the spec sheet or the DR chart and you would think they are only useful as paperweights. It must be magic then, how one gets images like this with a 7D Mark II:
@TRU, if Raw Mallabilty at low ISO is unimportant, why not just shoot jpeg. Raw Mallabilty is a fair consideration for, say, Real Estate or Astro photogs. And others.
@BBT: You seem to be among the few people who have troubles with a Canon sensor. Most people don't and I have shown what is possible. If your special type of photography needs the Sony sensor, more power to you. What is getting old is trying to force your choice on everyone else.
@Grapejam: Please stop exaggerating. No, I do not bracket every shot. I actually own a 5D Mark IV, which has higher DR. For a while, I thought it was fun to deliberately shoot at low ISO and underexpose, Then I realized it is a lot less work to shoot the way I used to - exposing correctly. On my vacations, I shoot landscapes in very scenic locations going out of my way to do so in the best light. Even with the higher DR, I bracket and do HDR. The number of scenes that are exactly between 11 and 13 stops of DR are few and far between.
@BBT: I realize that it is Bill Claff's own site, which makes it more ironic. You cite his measurements. I cite his interpretation as to the meaning of his own data. That's my point. You cite his data as if it contradicts his conclusions, when it does not.
What Bill is saying is what so many have been for so long: that this obsession with curves and stats overlooks the real point, which is the impact on the photograph. And according to Bill:
"Except at the very lowest ISO settings Canon is on par with other sensors.
The 1 stop difference at maximum Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) is only of practical consequence to a very very small number of situations."
In other words, any Sony DR advantage is relatively meaningless to most users. It's simply a talking point.
@Thoughts R Us "The 1 stop difference at maximum Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) is only of practical consequence to a very very small number of situations." This is is such a biased statement. I can see photogs working in studios or not caring about blowing highlights because of their artistic inclination declaring that, but I come across conditions of extreme DR that cameras like the A7RIII can handle, but even my A9 struggles with, never mind the 6D legacy sensors. Virtually any outdoors shooting in bright sunlight when flashes and light modifiers are not accessible, and there is a lot of that in real photography.
"What Bill is saying is what so many have been for so long: that this obsession with curves and stats overlooks the real point, which is the impact on the photograph."
How bout a real life comparison, then, since people don't like graphs and numbers and stuff:
Please cut the marketing drivel about this being the cheapest FF camera. Yes, you added the "at release" phrase in this video to make it technically correct, but the Sony A7 is still VERY competitive with this and available new for under $800. Adding a decent native lens, the A7 combo is less than half the price of the EOS RP combo. We'll see if Canon really tries to compete... I would argue the RP isn't even close to competing until they have a few cheaper native lens options.
The A7 is horrible; bad colors, bad AF, bad build quality, poor ergonomics...and the Sony kit lens is a joke.
As for native lens options, all Canon EF glass is native in all practical uses, since they all work seamlessly with the supplied adapter. It's not like trying to use on a Sony with third party adapter, esp. the Sony A7, which again, is really bad by comparison.
A7 II is fine, though. Just did a first time low light AF test tonight with an adapted lens and it went smooth enough.
The A7 II grip is roughly the same size as the RP, too, as the body has almost exactly the same dimensions. And the body and internal chassis is all magnesium, vs the RP's magnesium internal chassis and fully plastic body.
As usual, colors are up to the photographer, not the camera. And the Canon kit lens is non-existent. That's why the price skyrockets when you add a lens to the body, which should turn off a large portion of buyers.
PS: Sony had 4 OEM A-mount adapters at the time the A7 was launched. And they worked as "seamlessly" as the EF to RF adapter. Time to brush up on your history lessons. Again...
Canon will be releasing the RP on Feb 27 with a choice of 2 kit lenses: the stellar 24-105 f4, or the brand new 24-105 f3.5-5.6. The Sony kit lens is horrible, considered by virtually everyone to be a dog.
Colors do matter. Many photographers at this price point just want a camera that produces great OOC colors without a whole lot of work, either tweaking settings in camera or in post. And even then, it can be hard to get Sony files to match the quality of the Canon.
I guarantee you the RP feels far better than any Sony to hold. No one ever said that a Sony was a pleasure to hold or to use.
As for Sony A lenses on the Sony E mount: yes their adapter worked well, but the point is that they didn't have nearly as many A mount lenses as Canon has EF mount, not even close. And the Canon lenses are overall of a much higher quality, although Sony did have some nice A mount lenses.
Thoughts R Us: The A7 is $800 new: way cheaper as a new FF mirrorless camera. Like it or not, the pricing claim Canon seems to have tricked many reviewers into making is false; the RP's not even the second cheapest -- the A7II is $100 less.
As for your suggestion that Sonys are so inferior that they don't count, well, you clearly have not done any side-by-side tests. I have, mostly against my Canon 5DIV:
* The sensors in my A7 and A7II are about dead even overall with the one in my 5DIV -- as DxO also found.
* Excellent cheap native lens? How about Sony FE f/1.8 at $223.
* Minolta/Sony A mount glass works EXACTLY like it does on native A-mount DSLRs -- LE-EA4 even contains a DSLR-type separate PD sensor. Using a Metabones adapter with various EF lenses, my A7 is often faster but not quite as reliable as my 5DIV dual-pixel for AF of EF lenses. It's protocol translation delays vs. masked pixels working better than dual pixels for PD.
ProfHank: the A7 feels terrible in the hand, the colors are awful, it's not even close.
And the whole point of bringing up A mount with adapter on E mount by BBT was to try to create a false equivalence with Canon EF via adapter on RP. The Canon EF lineup is far superior to the Minolta/Sony A mount.
A7II doesn't even have a touch screen... not talking about touch-zoom, or touch-to-focus or fully articulated. It's not even a TOUCH MENU SCREEN. It's a dinosaur.
Why does this video feel like a apologetic ad for Canon? "This camera is not designed for video, but it is great for stills." Sure, if you're shooting really slow like circa 2008. Low frame rate, not class leading AF, low battery life. If it is indeed a stills-oriented camera, then I'd expect it to be pimped to the gills with stills features. It's actually mediocre on both ends. They just happened to recycle an old FF sensor in it for a some flash in the pan.
On the topic of Sony color, has anyone tried building color profiles for it with a Colorchecker? Did it fix the color problem? It seems like the first thing that any sensible person would do....
@BBT: Sony does not perform the same with Canon lenses with third party adapter, as the Canon lenses perform on Canon R series with Canon adapter. This is especially true if you are comparing the earlier Sony A7 series models, which you were because of the price range.
And Sony colors, even with settings changes, in many ways still cannot compete against Canon. And this doubly applies to the early A7 series Sony models, which again, you are citing due to price range.
But for many who will want the lower priced models, they will not want to have to bother with all sorts of color settings. They will just want it to work and produce pleasing colors out of the box. Canon will do that; the Sony's will not.
Sony's adapted AF locks on much more consistently. The R couldn't even hit objects standing still consistently.
"This is especially true if you are comparing the earlier Sony A7 series models, which you were because of the price range."
Right. I have the A7 II. Its extreme low light sensitivity is lower than my A6300s, but the focus precision is still there when it hits, and it's just as sensitive and precise in low light and above as my A6300s.
"Deliver punchy Canon EOS-like 4K, 1080p and JPEGs straight out of camera with EOSHD Pro Color."
"And this doubly applies to the early A7 series Sony models, which again, you are citing due to price range."
And this doubly is unimportant because RAW files are ridiculously more flexible than Canon-Coloristas would have you believe.
"But for many who will want the lower priced models, they will not want to have to bother with all sorts of color settings."
Nor will they want to spend $500 extra on the RP. An $800 A7 says full frame, and that's all that matters. A $1000 A7 w/ kit lens says it all. Especially when the lowest price RP lens kit is $700 more. Even the A7 II lens kit is $500 cheaper.
Thoughts R Us: Clearly, you just like Canon and that's the only thoughts that R in you. ;-) Since you keep pushing the idea, let's talk a bit about color....
Raw color is mostly a function of calibrating your raw converter; color issues are for JPEG shooters. Canon tends toward "Kodachromish" colors that Americans like, but the JPEG noise reduction and sharpening are heavy-handed. Nikon colors are a bit pumped, but ok; they're also slightly heavy-handed about noise reduction. Sony colors are ok too (perhaps biased slightly toward Japanese tastes?), but the handling of noise, sharpening, and DR are outstanding -- literally state-of-the-art (processing is context-sensitive). Pentax colors seem a bit off and noise reduction is a bit smeary... not bad, but poorer than most. The only JPEG colors that really bother me are from Fuji's very accurate film emulation modes, especially Velvia -- saturation is too high and highlights and shadows lose detail (just like they did with the film).
@GrapeJam, et al: what I hate is when Sony trolls descend on threads for other brands and just criticize them, all to promote Sony in their marketing campaign.
If you like Sony, fine...so comment on Sony threads and be done. But no matter what the camera, if it's not Sony, then some Sony people will swoop down to find fault and try to convince others to go with Sony. It gets tiresome and it's transparent.
I don't go to Sony forums and trash Sony.
As to this whole color profiling...remember, this is an entry level camera...many users will not know about this or want to bother. They will accept the OOC jpegs with default settings. That is my point. If you have to tell people to jump through hoops to get Sony to where Canon already is, then for many users that makes the Canon far superior.
"As to this whole color profiling...remember, this is an entry level camera...many users will not know about this or want to bother. "
Nor will they care about the color. I've seen just as many wedding attendees shooting A6000s (lots!) and A7s as some old beat up D90. They actually start conversations with me, since they see me shooting something similar, and they all love their cameras.
"Color" is just the last thing Canon users can hold over anyone's head these days, being so far behind in tech, and the magic of actual editing makes color irrelevant.
Here are the advantages the RP seems to have going for it: 1) low price for FF 2) small and light 3) easy to use 4) feels good in the hand 5) produces high quality images with great colors 6) high build quality 7) able to use with a huge number of Canon EF lenses with supplied adapter 8) entry into the RF system of lenses, which is rapidly becoming the premier set of mirrorless FF lenses on the market
In short, it's a great camera for a whole lot of the potential customers out there.
1) No category-standard IBIS 2) Lowest IQ in FF category 3) No silent shutter except in full auto scene mode 4) 1/4000 max shutter 5) 3fps max with AF 6) No stop-down AF 7) No 4K unless in full auto 8) Only 4K24 available 9) 1.74x(!) Cropped 4K 10) Cropped 4K still has rolling shutter 11) No DPAF in 4K 12) No industry-standard 1080p24 13) No category-standard weather sealing 14) As small as a Sony 15) Plastic fantastic body 16) Lowest battery life in FF category 17) Adapter hurts AF performance vs DSLR 18) RF lenses are extraordinarily expensive and quite large at this point, and no kit lenses are available
In short, Canon took away so much stuff, it's like eating a burger without the bun...
@BBT: nothing you listed will keep many people from enjoying and taking great pics with the RP.
The IQ is fine, see what Bill Claff wrote: "Except at the very lowest ISO settings Canon is on par with other sensors. The 1 stop difference at maximum Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) is only of practical consequence to a very very small number of situations."
I guarantee you the RP will produce far better OOC colors than any Sony.
Also, the Canon adapter in no way hurts AF performance vs DSLR; even the most ardent Canon critics agree that the Canon EF lenses work as well if not better with the Canon adapter than on DSLR.
Also it's puzzling that you keep saying there are no kit lenses available with the RP when it is a fact that on Feb 27 the RP will launch with 2 available kit lenses. The links are provided on this very page to order such kits on Amazon. Either you didn't notice or are willfully spreading disinformation.
"I guarantee you the RP will produce far better OOC colors than any Sony."
Not if you change the settings. Then again, if you turn on vignetting correction on the RP, you're in for a bad time. Funny how 1 stop difference makes a difference.
"Also, the Canon adapter in no way hurts AF performance vs DSLR"
Yes. It does. And let's remember that we can't blame a mirror anymore for missed shots.
Just like Nikon claimed their adapted performance was perfect from the very beginning, and early adopters said the same, but eventually the truth came out. OSPDAF is different than dedicated PDAF. Eventually processing speeds will create a match, but not today, and not in the next 5 years.
"Also it's puzzling that you keep saying there are no kit lenses available with the RP when it is a fact that on Feb 27 the RP will launch with 2 available kit lenses. "
One is a high end, expensive lens that nearly doubles the price of entry, and the other is an old rehash of a DSLR lens + adapter. Adapted lenses aren't kit lenses, they're adapted lenses. Funny how the rules change outside of Sony cameras.
"The RF 35 is both affordable and small."
And for the target audience, useless, as it does not zoom.
@Thoughts R Us... also: - In camera USB charging - Direct RAW editing on mobile devices - best in class stills autofocus with DPAF - best in class high ISO IQ - in-camera focus bracketing - whatever... when the camera is actually released, we'll get a full list of pros and cons.
I have to agree with Thoughts R Us here. I'm neither a Canon nor a Sony user, but if I want a small travel camera with access to the largest high quality lens selection on earth, the RP seems to be a strong candidate. The 4K functionality seems to be limited, but I'm not going to make feature films with this camera anyway.
Why would it be a better camera for me than he Sony? Fully articulated LCD and seemingly much better ergonomics are probably enough to do the trick. Add the 50mm f/1.2 and I'm ready to go. The last time I went on a round the world trip was with an OM-1, a 50mm f/1.8 and 10 rolls of Velvia. I'm sure the RP would do better.
"Add the 50mm f/1.2 and I'm ready to go. The last time I went on a round the world trip was with an OM-1, a 50mm f/1.8 and 10 rolls of Velvia. I'm sure the RP would do better."
... ... ...you do realize the size difference you're talking about right? Not to mention the cost ($3400).
@BBT:Sorry you don't get to write off the Canon kit lenses like that. The one is expensive but it's an L class lens, will last for well over a decade and be an investment, and will sing on any R series camera.
Funny also how you still will not acknowledge there is a huge difference between a Canon lens on Canon body with Canon adapter, vs on a Sony with third party adapter. In fact you would have us believe that it's OK to use a Canon lens on a Sony with third party adapter, but not OK to use on Canon body with Canon adapter.
Canon EF lenses with adapter are for all intents and purposes native to Canon R. Period. If you don't believe that then that doesn't change the facts. Every reviewer has backed that up.
As for the RF 35 being useless for target audience, that's absurd. You cannot speak for all target audience. The RF 35 will be fine for many, including those who already own Canon DSLRs who want to dip their toe into the MILC waters.
@BBT: sorry, but the A7 and 35 f2.8 will in no way match up to the RP and RF 50 f1.2. Yes, the cost and size will be larger, but not prohibitive for some, but boy with the results and user experience be a whole lot better.
And then there's the fact that if someone invests in the RF 50 f1.2 now, they will have a world class lens, best in class, for several years to come, easily more than a decade. The Sony lens is mediocre, and the Sony A7 is poor. Also good luck fixing the colors of the output of the A7.
"Sorry you don't get to write off the Canon kit lenses like that."
Then you don't get to write off all the A-mount lenses that Sony has available.
"and be an investment"
No lenses are investments except unopened Leica ones.
"Funny also how you still will not acknowledge there is a huge difference between a Canon lens on Canon body with Canon adapter, vs on a Sony with third party adapter."
Well, actually, many ex-Canon owners have said their old Canon lenses work BETTER on their Sony bodies than they did on their old Canon bodies. And this was before all full native features were enabled in the A7x III series.
"Canon EF lenses with adapter are for all intents and purposes native to Canon R. Period. "
Perhaps you missed the video I posted above testing multiple EF lenses on the higher end R, with poor results vs DSLR. Are you talking "native" as in SL1 performance? Maybe 4000D plastic mount performance?
They did that with the Zs, too. Then the truth came out after the non-vloggers got their hands on them.
"As for the RF 35 being useless for target audience, that's absurd. You cannot speak for all target audience."
Then why are ALL kit lenses zooms?
"sorry, but the A7 and 35 f2.8 will in no way match up to the RP and RF 50 f1.2."
If you actually read the comment, I was comparing the Sony setup as a size setup for his previous film camera. The RP setup is absolutely massive in size and weight in comparison. Not very portable, compared to the jacket pocket size camera he previously used.
"Also good luck fixing the colors of the output of the A7."
I know your'e afraid of pushing buttons (how did you type all that?) but you can change the colors on ANY ILC. Amazing, I know.
@BBT: I won't go through your entire litany of items; it's too tedious.
But I will answer a few: the fact that kit lenses are zooms in no way means that no one buying the camera will ever use a prime. That's absurd. Also note that the camera is also sold without a lens. I guarantee you there will be quite a few RP owners who will use the RF 35 with it. It's a match made in heaven.
As to fixing the colors...my point is this: many users will not bother to do that with an entry level camera. That's just a fact. And esp. with Sony's, where the menu's are poor and harder to figure out.
Damn, BlueBomberTurbo is working overtime today. I feel like BBT is a kid in a Sony sweatshop trying to justify his existence in such poor working conditions.
The only area where this might be an issue is for SOOC JPEG shooters. For RAW shooters, it's a total non-issue. As a Canon shooter, I can say that the colors I get from my Sony are just as good.
6) high build quality
The RP has a plastic body
7) able to use with a huge number of Canon EF lenses with supplied adapter
My Canon EF lenses work great with my Sigma MC-11 adapter. And all my non-stabilized EF lenses become stabilized thanks to Sony IBIS.
8) entry into the RF system of lenses, which is rapidly becoming the premier set of mirrorless FF lenses on the market
Nope, this camera is actually my 6D successor. It's smaller, lighter and has swivel lcd/ touch. It has DPAF so by by to microadjustments and accepts whole new line of gorgeous lenses such as 50 1.2 and 70-200 2.8 (that small).
As sensor on my 6D is simply amazing for my needs, that one should also keep up.
If you are an enthusiast, it might just fit your budget, if you are looking for a FF camera. But the dedicated glass for this camera now will price you out of the market. I have this no different for Nikon or Sony. I have no plans to make 20x30 prints. Every thing I do is currently displayed on online and therefore have have no need to move up from APS-C
And the A7 is known to have bad adapted AF. The A7 II is a big step up, and the A7 III another big step up on top of that, both after their own FW 2.0s.
@captura - I can tell you that my EF glass works great on my Sony A7II using the Sigma MC-11 adapter. I would definitely choose the A7II + SIgma MC-11 adapter over the RP because the A7II has IBIS. I love having IBIS with all my non-stabilized EF glass. Besides, Sony obviously has a much larger native lens selection than RF. Once you go mirrorless, you definitely want to go adapterless as quickly as possible.
Fair enough and I have a few native lenses, too. But no reason why I shouldn't adapt a few of my Canon lenses. I am quite familiar with IBIS, having it on an Olympus. But I am a steady shot and don't really need IBIS one an A7. I prefer the light weight without it on the A7. I
WOW!!! The worst interview I have ever attempted to watch. I ordered the RP /24-105 kit yesterday and thought I might learn something from the usually reliable DPreview.
Maybe in the intro, announce who the target audience for the content is. I.e. hard out gear enthusasts, beginners etc. For myself, it wasn't nearly in depth detailed enough. E.g. how does the EVF compare to say, the 6D evf in size, clarity etc. But I think the hosts both came across well.
Thanks for the feedback. That's a good idea. It's mainly dictated by the tone of the questions, but this probably isn't the place to get too deep into tech (I'd want a whiteboard for that, and I can't imagine anyone's going to want me performing bad technical Pictionary, live).
So riddle me this; it's already clear that this camera takes extraordinary pictures. But everyone keeps saying it's the same junky sensor that was in the 6D. Is a possible explanation that if you take a sensor and change the micro lenses, you then need to make other changes to accommodate the new arrangement? And if you change the sensor, doesn't that also entail changing the programming that runs the sensor? And finally, with new cameras/old sensor, don't the engineers take what they learned while the sensor was out in the field and incorporated it into the new release?
Or do the engineers clock out early and a shipping clerk wanders out to the warehouse, digs a few pallets of sensors out of the 6D reject pile and sends them over to the RP factory?
It all rather depends on what the criticisms of the 6D II sensor were.
Its main shortcoming was dynamic range at low ISOs. Based on previous Canon sensors this is primarily from downstream read noise, not something you can really fix without redesigning the sensor.
Even then, the dynamic range was generally measured at around 11EV. This is some way behind the D750's 13.7EV but still more DR than is usually included in a JPEG (usually around 8,5EV).
So for JPEG shooters, this simply doesn't matter. Using Highlight Tone Priority (which uses a lower amplification/tone curve balance to add an extra stop of highlights) might reveal more shadow noise than its rivals. Equally any major lens corrections, particularly of vignetting, might begin to look a touch noisier. But not generally a problem.
Mostly, though, that DR difference only appears when you start to edit your Raws, and this camera will show much more noise as soon as you start to lift any additional tones into your images.
So new microlenses do not a quieter sensor make, then. There you have it, the voice of reason and experience. Nice to know the sensor wasn't as awful as the comment section says because the photos coming out of that camera are stunners. Maybe it's just the better lenses. Thanks for clarifying.
@Smiler: thank you for actually looking at the photos. Some would rather look at specs than photos.
Specs never tell the whole story, esp. just one spec like DR. There is no product I can think of whereby specs even come close to giving a complete picture of the product or its relative value or standing in the market.
This camera is meant for people that walk into Bestbuy and the salesman convinces a newbie that it’s a great buy for the $.. Normal people don’t know how much more advanced Sony, Pani, and Fuji are spec for spec against the CaniKons... or CANOTKONS...
Seriously folks, I don't understand why people are spending their time bashing Canon? If you don't like the brand, just go to the one you like and discuss products. Please, this wastes everyone's time.
@sewhidbey, Immaturity is very clear among some brand users, who make themselves sound like spoiled teenagers. Probably they are actually spoiled teenagers! Not much you can do to fix that.
"Normal" people don't pay much attention to spec sheets (or know what those numbers mean.) They want to take pictures. Is it easy to use and comfortable? How much does it cost? Done. The Sony mindset seems to come from the days when we compared the frequency response of the Sony receiver to the Pioneer, the Kenwood and the Onkyo.
If people took that mentality, how would the RP even sell, with 2 Sonys selling cheaper? Price certainly wins over comfort in Canon's target audience. They're coming from smartphones and cheap brick shaped P&Ss.
@sewhidbey Because people are invested in the EOS system. It's not easy just to change camera. And EOS system is not giving us products to compete with other systems. That's why people are unhappy, and it is not unwarranted.
All one has to do is hold a Canon and then hold a Sony, and then one understands why the Canon is superior.
@BBT: as for comfort, the Canon is far more comfortable to hold than any Sony; not even close. And once again, it's never a good look to insult the consumer.
@jkgal: I'm in the EOS system and am very happy with it...the vast majority of EOS users are very happy with it. There's a big difference in the universe of real users vs the Internet forum critics.
"All one has to do is hold a Canon and then hold a Sony, and then one understands why the Canon is superior."
But they're the same size...
"it's never a good look to insult the consumer."
But that's all Canon's been doing this decade...
"There's a big difference in the universe of real users vs the Internet forum critics."
And yet Canon's forecasts are down yet again, and Sony's are up, in a declining market. Either old Canon shooters are dying off fast, current Canon users are switching brands, or new shooters are just avoiding Canon. Just like how the US car brands tanked after their longtime buyers started passing on, and brand agnostic buyers entered the market, saw how bad those cars really were, and chose to buy anything but them.
Normal people don't buy cameras any more, and much less $1,300 ones with awful video. Those days are over. It's only the enthusiasts left, now, and we all take at least a cursory look at reviews and specs. This camera will flip hard thanks to Canon's Center for Creative Camera Crippling, the foremost institution in the world in terms of removing features to maximize frustration 🤣
@kharan.. well I see people take pics of their cupcakes with a ff Canon, Sony or Nikon all the time here in Shanghai. You are wrong. There is a HUGE market for a budget full frame mirrorless. And those people really don’t care about the missing specs or less dr..
Henricsmaria: Wow, talk about condescending. You think the people who take photos of their cupcakes don't read spec sheets or watch YouTube reviews?
And if they don't, why wouldn't they pick the largest, meanest camera they can? Often people just grab a used 5DII because they know it's "professional" and it costs even less, substantially so with the kit lens.
Kharan: "Normal people don't buy cameras any more, and much less $1,300 ones with awful video." Now I learned a new thing today. We all here are "ABNORMAL". Thanks for the info, Kharan. :-)
By the way, I predict that this camera will outsell every other FF camera on the market. A year from now we'll see the numbers. Personally, I'm buying it for just 2 of its features: focus stacking, and time-lapse, but mainly the focus stacking. I could care less for video, although its video is not awful at all. Besides, the camera is not aimed at videographers.
@kharan.. wow you think that was condescending? Taking food pics is a big thing over here.. And of course they don’t read about specs and watch YouTube (especially in China).
Captura the A7mkI is already £875 and falling, and was discounted before the RP suggesting a need to shift inventory. Some think this is a competition between the A7mkI and the RP, but why would any one by the A7I given the difference in price between the A7 mkii, and of course why would you buy at Sony at all if you are a Canon shooter? Jumping systems gets more risky over time, always something new and better just around the corner.We all risk buying into obsolescence. A better strategy is to get more value out of your current kit or remain within a given system.
@George1958: I bought my A7mkI only a few months ago. I prefer it's smaller size & weight, and dob't need IBIS. A couple of firmware updates really brought the A7 to par but most people don't realize that. I bought a used SL1 late last year just as a cheap backup where I could use the same Canon lenses which I already adapt to my A7. Canon lenses are less expensive than Sony. Previously my main cameras were crop Sony NEXES, so I have a long history with Sony.
1. Is the RP sensor the same as the 6D Mark II sensor that destroyed the 6 series for portraiture? 2. WHEN will we see large numbers of portraits taken with the RP and Canon's [IMHO] best L-series portrait lenses: the 135/2 and the original 24-105L? Really - people don't want to see models with painted faces. Show us how the RP compares to the 6D as revealed on Flickr by Jakub Ostrowski, Elvin, et al. for really great color and bw portraits. (I can share ~200 links to examples).
I said the opposite: the 6D takes magnificent portraits. I'm not saying the 6D2 can't take portraits, only that I haven't seen portraits from that camera that come anywhere near equaling the 6D. In an act of sheer insanity, I browsed about 1700 Flickr pages of 6D, 6D+135/2, and 6D+24-105 photos over a period of several weeks, bookmarking the portraits that I liked best. Recently I looked at maybe 20 pages of 6D2 photos, hoping to relieve my doubts about the RP, and saw no portraits that equaled what i routinely saw from the 6D. The 6D2 sensor portraits look, to me, more like Nikon photos - contrastier than Canon.
hm, including lens it's no more sooo cheap especially the big, heavy ones but cheapness seems to be the main feature?? .. canon probably/maybe catch a lot more costumers like this and at the end they'll profit, i think
Hi, firstly, i would like to know is 1080p oversampled from full sensor readout? Or is it line skipping & pixel binning again? Secondly, how does eye AF works on say for example 50mm f1.8 stm? Is it accurate 8 times from 10? (in photo mode)
The more I read about this camera, the more I'm enamored. I am a Nikon shooter and just recently purchase a Z6. If this Canon came out on the beginning of the year, I would've seriously considered it!
If so, maybe it's time for final statement about it. Sadly 800D, 77D, 80D and 7DII are still superior for action photography than all MLC Canon has to date.
It's got 3 dials with the one on the lens and the two on the body (and I never count joysticks/4-way controllers). That's good by Fuji standards let alone Canon. Fuji locks the things down too, the only really similar 3-dial I can think of is the still well regarded NEX-7
Also, people might not ask chefs their brand of stove, but they often inquire if a specific tool is required to achieve a particular result, and about the brand of knives that they employ. We're humans living in the western world, and most of us happen to like and appreciate tools, even when the skill is more important.
Adobe's new Enhance Details does very well with automatic moire elimination. Then you can finish the job with the Adjustment Brush set to Moire Reduction (which works well by itself).
I'm not using LR because of the poor, noisy image quality. I use Capture1. Also I don't like to fiddle around too much with the images to correct or modify them. C1 offers all the tools for my needs and I don't have to use PS at all.
I'm just the opposite. I use ACR (LR w/o catalog), and don't like C1's plasticky NR, or its harsh sharpening (I have to use it for work). ACR gives a much more consistent NR look across highlight and shadow (especially in chroma smoothing ability), is infinitely easier to create profiles for, and the new Enhance Details improves chroma detail and helps smooth out noise a bit before you even touch anything.
C1 sharpening is harsh of course if you set to the default 180. Otherwise you can get similar flat picture like with LR just dial back the structure to about -30... -50. The best results you get if you enhance the sharpness in export adjustments, tailored specially for the target resolution. The normal sharpness i leave always on zero. This way i get very crisp eyecatching images for social media.
The world of photography divides on the tree parts - professionals, photo forums geeks and others. “Others” are 99% (me included). I will buy this camera and will be happy.All the best!
Question: I would buy this to replace my Canon 6D, which is pretty heavy for me when taking it out for landscape shots, along with lenses, etc. I am still learning to take decent landscapes and do astrophotography. Some of those I shoot with in my camera club have much more expensive mirrorless cameras, but that's not in my budget and I will need to sell the 6D. I am wondering if this is the right move for me and what are main considerations in making this decision. Thanks.
Hopefully DPR will answer your question, but personally, I'm not sure that you will gain much from this move. You will be saving 200g on the camera once you factor in the adapter, which I'm guessing you will be using at first. You may eventually make further weight savings if Canon bring out some lighter native lenses, but that may not happen for a while. 200g is nothing if you already carry a tripod.
Image quality benefits will be very minor - essentially a bit more detail at low ISO. Dynamic range is actually slightly worse.
Handling with heavy lenses and in cold conditions will be worse with the RP. No direct buttons for ISO or drive mode. The things you do get, like more advanced AF and video, you will likely not need. Battery life is much worse on the RP. This can be a real pain in the butt.
The flip screen may be useful if you work on a tripod or at low angles. Being able to review images in the EVF is useful in bright conditions. I'm struggling to think of much else.
If you want a truly small FF camera buy a Sony a7III and a Loxia lens, or a Voigtländer. Also Sony makes some wonderful small AF lenses line 28 f/2, 50 f/1.4, or 55 f/1.8, or 35 f/2.8, or 85 f/1.8.
I agree with Jonby, unless you really need Dual Pixel AF for video you are probably better off just buying lenses or using that money on a trip somewhere, besides, you might even have better weather sealing and dynamic range on the 6D as it is today, and remember that if it’s 1300 dollars today it’s probably gonna be around 1100/1200 dollars by Christmas, and even cheaper on eBay after that
I agree with Jonby, unless you really need Dual Pixel AF for video you are probably better off just buying lenses or using that money on a trip somewhere, besides, you might even have better weather sealing and dynamic range on the 6D as it is today, and remember that if it’s 1300 dollars today it’s probably gonna be around 1100/1200 dollars by Christmas, and even cheaper on eBay after that, I would just wait ...
Thanks everyone, for your sensible advice. I just watched the live review and think I will keep my 6D. Weight and the focusing options would be the main advantages as I'd keep my current lenses at least till Canon makes some mid-range ones that fit the R series. Given the dynamic range, lack of silent shutter, battery life and weather resistance, it does not make sense for me. I already use a carbon fiber tripod and just want to reduce the weight while retaining the semi-pro features in a ff body. That's what happens when you are over 70, a smallish woman and a cancer and nearly fatal auto accident survivor. Adapt and resist.
It seems to me that your main complaint is the heavy weight when lugging heavy lenses, etc., as well as your concern or envy what others in the group are using (more expensive equipment). Since your main focus is on landscape and some astronomy, then you probably would be better off carrying a wide angle prime lens. Just one prime lens!!!
Such lenses are not very expensive on the used market. But of course "L" lenses have their advantage, at a price to match. The 6D is still a good camera, and along with a suitable prime, should produce nice landscapes, as well as dark sky images. I wouldn't switch at this time, if I were you.
Never worry about the expensive equipment others are using. That becomes like trying to "keep up with the Jonses". Just concentrate on your "composition". It's a crucial one when it comes to landscapes. Good luck.
Sounds like a good move @sewhidbey, to be fair the 6D still has one of the cleanest sensors out there for astrophotography, if you are concerned with dynamic range I would simply bracket a few more exposures and let Lightroom blend them for you, now if you already have a carbon fiber tripod and head and still really wanna save some weight this is as light as it’s gonna get: https://www.lonelyspeck.com/sony-a7iii-astrophotography-review/#more-114101 That lens: https://www.lonelyspeck.com/zeiss-batis-18mm-f2-8-astrophotography-review/ it’s weather sealed and light as a feather, and if you go with Sony’s AF smaller primes or even Zeiss Manual Focus Loxia primes you’ll find yourself with a much smaller bag, Sony does let’s use use your current lenses by adapter, but all would be a significant investment, although if you do move to the RF line one day, you might still end up buying their new lenses.
On the basis of weight, you aren't going to gain much since the body doesn't weight all that much less than the 6D, and the L lenses weigh about the same.
Could be that. I was thinking that it might be due to the fact that the camera is aimed partly at beginners, and they decided that choosing the type of shutter is too much to to expect from those kinds of users. Rolling shutter effects like banding etc. are quite likely to confuse those kinds of users and lead to them to assume there is something wrong with the camera.
I can only say that the Sony a7xx for it's E-shutter is fantastic. Was at a wedding tgis weekend and the photographer used it during the wedding ceremony. It's just amazing to shoot completely silent with full DR, AF etc.
This theory may very well be true but it's still annoying. AFAIK Sony's last ML cam without E shutter was the A6k/A7 ect, and even they are actively evolving their AF design to be simpler and easier for "anybody" to use. Even the modern entry level MFT bodies all have it, and Fuji as well.
I think the most likely reason Canon is omitting E shutter is as eit says, rolling shutter, they are afraid, without IBIS, too many photos with E shutter will end up looking like a funny mirror and they get a bad rep.
So Canon, hurry the hell up and fix your sensors. I don't mind the IQ aspects but E shutter has been on MFT bodies for like 7 years.
@David yes i shoot with E shutter like 95% of the time. Sometimes it's for silence so i can get more candid shots and float around unnoticed, other times it helps sharpness without vibrations. And all along the way im reducing shutter wear so it's one less part to replace over time.
"Rolling shutter effects like banding etc. are quite likely to confuse those kinds of users and lead to them to assume there is something wrong with the camera."
Im getting so tired of this excuse.
By that logic the camera shouldnt allow you to change white balance settings and it should always be on auto, otherwise if a beginner accidentally changes it to custom they will be confused why all their photos are blue.
Also forget about Manual mode, you wouldn't want someone to have the shutter set to 5secs and be confused with blurry pics! They might think the camera is broken!
Might as well have no sd slot and have unremovable 64gb memory built into the camera, otherwise people will get confused the camera cant save photos outside of the box!
Seriously, give us the electronic shutter as an OPTION and set it to off as default (like literally every other camera manufacturer does).
Critical Thinker: "Seriously, give us the electronic shutter as an OPTION and set it to off as default (like literally every other camera manufacturer does)."
Yes absolutely. I agree with you. In the post you quoted from, I was merely speculating as to why Canon would withhold this feature - not agreeing with it. I think their inclusion of a 'guided' user interface speaks volumes about who they are aiming this camera at.
My question for DPR: As a 6Dii owner (previously 5D) and with several good Canon EF lenses, is there a reason for me to switch to the RP? I like the smaller form factor, but not sure what other reason there is to switch.
PS: I'm also an M owner and use it in addition to my 6Dii
I have two FF bodies and an M5. The reason I am selling my M5 soon and buy the EOS RP is because it makes sense for all of my raw files to be coming from full frame bodies, especially when doing batch post-processing. I can simply apply the same settings across all raw files versus having to use a different setting when editing raw files from cropped body.
Another reason is it means I only have to maintain EF and RF lenses going forward, versus having EFM, EF and RF lenses. Yes I know I can use an adapter for the M5 to use my EF lenses, but that kind of defeats the purpose of a small camera. The EOS RP is of course bigger than the M5. It's a compromise I am willing to make considering it is a full frame camera.
Best of all, I have two spare E17 batteries from my M5, the same battery used by the EOS RP.
I see, if that is the case it probably makes sense to switch. Many claim that Canon’s mirrorless APSC is a dead end now anyway. If I were to select between any of their APSC offering and RP I would pick RP.
For the likes of us, perhaps. However, many entry-level consumers looking to upgrade from their smartphones would be drawn to the allure of the M series, considering its size, lens option, overall portability and image quality. Canon asserts they will keep investing in the M series. It's probably their way of saying they cannot leave such lucrative market alone to Fuji.
M series is a sales leader for Canon, they are dominating mirrorless sales in japan. So most likely they will not discontinue it in the next 20 years. Also it is a great and compact travel option with really tiny lenses.
Exactly this. I wonder why don’t the reviewers go and ask those uncomfortable questions during their precious visits to Hawaii...is it because xyz company may find it offensive and cease the invitations?
Of course. And playing nice sometimes means making certain uncomfortable truths obscure or turning them into positive things. Otherwise no Hawaii for you next time. I work in advertising I know how this business works very well. All of them can say that they are crystal clear but all fall for 'wine and dine them' tricks. When one is in the know and uses the same tactics for his clients it makes the whole thing laughable.
Question: the RP's guided user interface is clearly aimed at beginners. What do DPR think it offers these potential buyers over something like the SL2 or M50, and is it worth paying around 3x the price (and a lot more for lenses) for these benefits?
Two and a half times larger sensor. Affordable 1.8 lenses for when you need shallow DoF. Affordable f/2.8 or f/4 third party zooms. All adapted of course :D
A A7/II is still a hell lot cheaper, for using with adapted Lenses. Better DR, too. And in terms of the A7 II, with IBIS also, so every adapted Lens becomes being stabilized.
You must be joking.These smartphone Kids! FYI, the A7 II was being at release more expensive. This is far by none the most weird, strange answer ever. "because of the touch screen". oh my gosh.
The A7 / II certainly offer a lot more for the money from my perspective, but I'm not a beginner. They are quite complex and idiosyncratic enthusiast cameras with deep menus, so I don't think these will appeal to the same segment of the market as the RP.
Canon focuses on non-nerdy buyers who have no patience to fiddle around in the menus. Also the new generation use touchscreen for everything. Even me at 34 i like the touchscreen on my M50. It's just makes much easier to use it, and many times 1 touch replaces 5 button presses.
Why did Canon choose to artificially cripple the silent shooting mode in the RP and restricted it to an automated scene mode? Quite insulting really, considering all the competition has a silent electronic shutter by default (entry level bodies as well).
I don't understand what Nikon or Sony have to match a price neither of them need to make a camera of the RP spec they are better than that. Even if Canon drop their price another $300 I wouldn't buy the RP.
Not artificial. My best guess is that the sensor has a slow readout and terrible rolling shutter. The M50 has the same limitation. The shutter time is about 100ms, and causes slight but visible distorsions in photos.
No excuse, the R has it. Its most definitely a feature theyve disabled. All cameras have rolling shutter with electronic shutter, some much worse than others. Its still absolutely invaluable as a tool, literally zero noise in environments like a church/library/ceremony/event where there is little movement is one of the best features of mirrorless cameras. The user should know in what situation to use it or not.
Have you shot with EOS 300D? They've crippled everything they could lay their hand onto (like you cannot use any AF mode but AF-A in Av/Tv/M/P modes), but still this camera has been selling like hot cakes. The time has changed, but the same Canon strategy of crippling the cameras remains.
Yes. But instead of the 6D II with Digic 7, now with Digic 8, for a bit enhanced processing power. Also, the microlens design over the sensor is being slightly different, enhanced, for the wider RF mount, and therefore a different design, to capture more light from the very angles. The sensor *is* besides that, basically, from the mentioned above, the same.
One can read this also into the canon interview, about the RP, on imaging-ressource, i've posted that before these days.
The Sony A7 II into contrast, being full 450 EUR cheaper nowadays (In Germany: RP: 1500 EUR, A7 II: 1049 EUR), does have better DR, still. And IBIS.
And tons of eMount Adapters are being avialable - and with IBIS, every fave, old & beloved manual focus lens from the past, either prime or zoom, becomes stabilized. That's a huge plus.
And yes, the A7 II is around 2 stops better at low ISO DR, though the 6D II (and most likely RP) is around 1 stop better at high ISO. The A7 II is also the only recent camera the 6D II/RP can beat at high ISO.
"RF-mount is the exact same size as EF-mount." The diameter may be the same, but the flange distance is shorter so the angle of light that can hit the edge of the sensor is wider. Therefore a different micro lens array can be beneficial.
Canon puts Millions into their Marketing, Advertising Campains. Not a rant, just being curious about that. How it comes, such a lot of buzz, here on DPR for just a entry level FF camera? Oh my gosh.
I simply don't care about the Brand, i don't give a damn, if my current camera is from Sony, Canikon, Pentax, etc...as every model xy from brand xyz does have pros and cons, but this here...seems to be really strange - such a rumble about an entry level FF Canon. ;-)
Pro Canon: Great new RF L Lenses, Cons: no adapters for virtually everything, expensive.
Pro Sony: IBIS, WR, to some degree, way cheaper nowadays, 998 USD, or <1100 EUR, virtually every lens from the past 70years being adaptable, Full Range of eMount adapters avialable, a lot cheaper than the EOS RP.
Into 2019, there aren't any bad cameras on the market, one can make good pictures with any camera.
The Sony A7ii has/had very little market impact since it's release. It may be a decent camera, but it didn't shake the tree like this new canon will. When it was introduced, it's lens ecosystem was tiny. That may have changed now, but have a look at canons RF lenses six months in. It's game over. I would buy into RF just for those lenses.
The heart of a System Camera is always, being the Lenses, the Investment - never the Bodies, which are being replaced, all 3-5 years, usually.
Here-by, yes, Canon excels. Their current EOS RF bodies, EOS-R, EOS-RP, are both being "meh", but their L RF-Lens LineUp is already being impressive - albeit, this comes at a high price.
When i do choose a System, i look at both the usual Lenses and Body cost, and Canon isn't being "cheap", or great enough, currently from price-to-performance ratio.
But they put Millions into their Advertising Campaigns, and many people just buy Canon - because it's "Canon", and some are even not knowing any other brand, besides Canon and Nikon.
There is no "Game-Over". And for real, i never cared ever, what the masses would do, listen to, watching, or buying, etc. seriously. If all would shoot Canon, i'd be the one with a Pentax, or any other brand, just for instance. ;-)
The RP makes buzz because it's the cheapest. For those still shooter like me on pretty tight budget, this is a miracle. I'm considering the upgrade from my ancient 5Dmk2. But first i have to see if my ancient tamron 70-200 2.8 is compatible with the RP. I say that because with the M50 the focusing is quite bad.
It's not the cheapest, only uninformed people do think this. For instance, the A7 original is about 750, the A7 II about 998 bucks - so both are a hell more cheaper.
Personally, i won't use a ancient 70-200 2.8 (if it's not a L Canon) onto a M50, because these lenses back then haven't been great, means, Tamron had some melons, as well as Sigma...funny thing, though...Sigma was back into the 80's to 2000's still a supplier of very cheap, low quality 3rd party lenses - that changed over the years, especially since the ART Lenses introduction - back into 2012.
Mark: - I'm not uninformed - i'm not a dentist, so i have a limited budget, I can't change my whole system, because the sony camera body is 1 stop better at ISO100. - The A7 and A7II is known for their unreliable AF. - I tried the A7II and I just don't like how they work and feel. - I tried the the tamron 70-200 on the M50 just for fun. It's not practical by any means. So small body looks funny on such a large lens. On 5Dmk2 it's fine, offers decent bokeh and sharp enough for portraits. Unuseable for any action.
It wasn't meant against you, being uninformed - just into gerneral speaking, and not being bad meant either way. :)
AF isn't being unreliable. I do have A7 usage experience since early 2014. I dislike that design of the A7 "black box", and how it handles, dislike the menues also, but do like its image quality, and the fact, that i can use my manual focus all by adapters onto it. :) I prefer more my Canon & Fujifilm Camera, because they do never get into my way, when shooting.
An ideal Sony A7 series would look somehow equal, to the Fujifilm X-T Series, or like Contax RTS/AX/RX Series.
If they ever produce it, which is extremely unlikely, it would probably still be inferior to D500, so why bother?
Canon now finally realise that the future for sports cameras is mirrorless, which potentially enables better AF tracking and much faster burst speeds. EVF lag problems are almost a thing of the past. The only remaining problem is battery consumption. RF mount will allow for faster focusing modern lenses.
DSLRs are now outmoded and I'd be very surprised if Canon or Nikon ever produce another model, either in APS or FF format.
Snapper - where exactly did I claim that I "know"? I was expressing an opinion, not proclaiming a proven fact. But I think my "crystal ball" will prove to be quite accurate.
Necip - Yes, I guess it's possible that Nikon could bring out a D6 for the 2020 Olympics, and likewise Canon a 1Dx Mkiii, as neither have a FF pro-sports mirrorless yet. Also it's possible both might want to dispose of stockpiles of DSLR parts via introducing a couple of budget models. But for the prosumer/semi-pro markets the day of the DSLR is over.
Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, Leica and Sony have all made it pretty clear that their future is mirrorless (despite the usual protestations that they'll continue with DSLRs, which remind me of similar protestations by Sony about supporting the A-mount with new lenses).
I'm still a DSLR dinosaur, but in common with most other people I know, I don't anticipate ever buying a DSLR again. Mirrorless cameras are now too good to ignore. The problem for me is deciding what brand/model to get, and how long to wait for an even better model, before taking the plunge.
@entoman, you are completely crazy. Canon And Nikon will without a doubt release new DSLRs. They have not transitioned to mirrorless yet and will not give up market share because they do not release new bodies. They will be careful how they develop things with R&D so they can share parts between new DSLRs and mirrorless cameras. Saying there will never be another new DSLR is just ridiculous. It was just last year that Canon ended the sales of their film Eos cameras.
With that said, I don't expect ground breaking developments in the new DSLR cameras. Expect incremental changes, more live view and video features handed down form their mirrorless siblings. I would be shocked if new APS-C lenses were developed by Canon or Nikon though.
KonaMike - Maybe, but it's very hard to see what Canon or Nikon could do, within the limits imposed by DSLR technology.
Any advances in AF tech will come via sensor-based AF that uses subject recognition.
DSLR burst speeds are unlikely to increase, but can quite easily reach 30 or even 50fps with mirrorless, given sufficient processing power.
There is little that can be done to further reduce noise and vibration from shutter-mirror asssemblies, whereas mirrorless can be completely silent and vibratio-free.
Are DSLRs going to get IBIS? - I don't think so.
Live view and video are much better implemented on mirrorless.
And why would I or anyone else buy into another iteration of DSLRs with trivial incremental changes, when we can get far more significant changes by using mirrorless?
DSLRs traditionally have better battery life, but Sony in the a9 have demonstrated that 1200 shots can easily be obtained from a single charge.
That really just leaves the viewfinder experience as the last DSLR stronghold, but Panasonic now have a 5,760,000 dot EVF operating at a lag-free 120Hz, revealing more detail, greater brightness and higher magnification than optical viewfinders.
@entoman, Canon and Nikon will sell many DSLRs regardless of any of the points you make. Regardless of frames per second, AF, etc.
I'm sure Nikon and Canon will share costs by using the same sensor in mirrorless and DSLR, and supporting chips. They will migrate pro features to lower models. There is no way they will stop going after the market they own, until there is no market there at all.
People will buy what is comfortable for them. And they will slowly move towards mirrorless, regardless of how great or better it is. They enjoy using their camera a certain way and don't want to change. Believe it or not but there are people out there that curse digital and want to use film. I like post processing, and was glad to stop using film.
Hey, they still sell loads of DVDs regardless of how much better blu-ray is and how easy it is to stream.
Many years ago, when just about everyone I knew had switched to digital, I swore I would "never, ever" give up my film cameras, and that digital images would "never" match the quality of a projected Kodachrome.
But, eventually it dawned upon me that digital cameras had far more capability than film cameras (e.g. shooting colour at ISO 800 with near zero noise or grain).
Reluctantly I switched to digital, and never turned back.
Just as in the case of film vs digital, mirrorless cameras have now, at long last, reached the stage where they can do just about any task faster, more accurately, and more easily than a DSLR.
No matter how much we love our DSLRs, they are inferior in just about every way to mirrorless. There comes a time to face the facts and move on.
With the exception of Pentax (sadly doomed to die), every camera manufacturer has realised that consumers, both amateur and pro, are fed up with the limitations of DSLRs.
Above all else, Canon and Nikon want to make money, and the number of people wanting to buy a *new* DSLR will drop extremely rapidly.
Maybe Nikon and Canon might continue to produce a couple more token DSLRs, just as Sony continued to produce a final SLT (a99ii), but the end is clearly just a couple of footsteps away.
@entoman, I sympathise with your slow move to digital. from the very beginning, I knew digital would be far better. I had to wait until I could afford it. You completely miss the point that I'm NOT debating the merits of mirrorless vs DSLRs, I'm talking about the marketplace. The merits of mirrorless don't matter as long as Nikon and Canon can milk their DSLRs
Many people will wait to convert to mirrorless, just as you did to digital. Nikon and Canon will be more than happy to serve them DSLRs. Even if DSLR sales do a complete nosedive , which they won't. They will continue to push out incremental upgrades. The factories are already set up, not much cost in producting them. The DSLR is in a slow descent. However, there will be many many DSLRs sold before Nikon and Canon quit.
It will be a while before Nikon and Canon hit 50/50 mirrorless/DSLRs sales. I'm sure they will reduce models offered as they consolidate their DSLR lines, but they will sell them as long as possible.
Kona - No I'm not missing your point at all. I certainly agree that Canon would *like* to milk DSLRs as long as possible, they are the world's leading experts at "milking", as we all know.
What I doubt, is whether they will be *able* to do so. My opinion is that those such as myself, who currently own DSLRs, and have tried and rejected earlier mirrorless models, have now reached the stage where we see little or no point in pursuing the DSLR path. We will either switch to mirrorless, or keep soldiering on with our *existing* DSLRs until we feel that mirrorless has matured enough to make the switch.
So who exactly will Canon and Nikon sell these "incremental upgrade" DSLRs to?
People that don't read up on digital cameras, but just drop by a store and buy a Rebel with a kit lens. People that can't be bothered to change, that want it to work like their last one. People that are waiting for a better mirrorless form Nikon or Canon. People that have an opinion about mirrorless and won't change. People that do't like the EVF. People that don't care about the latest tech. People that don't want to read reviews and pixel peep sample images. People that don't know what DR is. People that just want something better than a phone. People that don't care to or want to learn a new way to operate something.
Don't overestimate that people that get overwhelmed looking for a new camera. Each brand has all different model numbers and price ranges. They will buy what is familiar. Familiar model numbers and/or familiar manufacturer. There is a whole psychology to brand loyalty.
same as the sony a3, canon M5, M6 like 2.36 million pixels. The R and Fuji x-t3 are the next step up at 3.69 million pixels, although the R seems to show more dynamic range in the viewfinder, the x-t3 tends to clip things...Both have a magnification fo .71x, but the RP is .39" and the R is .5".
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